Episode 189: Autism in Black – with Maria Davis-Pierre

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Maria Davis-Pierre, a licensed mental health counselor, autism awareness advocate, and founder of the organization Autism in Black. As the parent of two autistic children and being autistic herself, she uses her professional expertise to connect with and empower Black parents of autistic children. Through Autism in Black, she also provides essential training to organizations to help them serve the Black disability community more effectively. She’s been featured for her work in Forbes, the New York Times, USA Today, Parents Magazine and on PBS, and has collaborated with Microsoft. Maria, welcome to the podcast.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I’m so excited to have the chance to talk with you and learn more about your work and, and your own journey as an autistic person. So how did you discover that you are autistic?

Maria Davis-Pierre: So, I am newly diagnosed, so I’ve had my diagnosis about a year. And what happened was, I was actually going to my psychiatrist to get a prescription for my ADHD medication.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Maria Davis-Pierre: And it was a new doctor that I was meeting with, I was going in because Covid had really, what I thought, had really done a number on me. Just, you know, having to be in the house for so long and not really engaging. And I went there for an appointment and he was like, um, has anybody ever talked to you about you being autistic? And this, I hadn’t even said anything about having kids who are autistic or anything. He was just like, nobody’s ever said that to you? I was like, no.

Yeah, I was, I was shocked. Because I never thought that, you know, I always just thought it was my ADHD, but you know, there is a strong overlap. So he was like, yeah, I can give you the diagnosis. I said, no, I think I wanna, I want to do some evaluations here. He was like, you know, you’re autistic. And I was like, I think I wanna do some, some, um, evaluations. And ended up doing the evaluations and very much so got the, the diagnosis.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. It’s interesting. A lot of my guests will find out that they’re autistic after their own children have been identified or diagnosed as autistic. And then, and, and sometimes it comes from the same doctor or it really takes a doctor sometimes to recognize that. And, uh, yeah. That’s very interesting. Wow.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Very, very, yeah. Such a difference from what we did with my daughter. So, yeah. Completely different experience

Carolyn Kiel: Really! So was your daughter identified much earlier in her life?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yes, but it was a, a fight. She’s 10 now, but she got her diagnosis at 18 months and it really came only because I sat in boycotted in the pediatric neurologist’s office for a week. So that’s why she got her diagnosis. So she took a lot, took a lot of fighting to get hers, and mine was just like, here you go, handed to me. So it was completely different experiences.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. The whole diagnosis process around autism is so, it seems to depend on the provider.

Maria Davis-Pierre: mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: And it’s not always consistent.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Not at all.

Carolyn Kiel: Very interesting you had such different experiences.

So what was it like for you growing up? You mentioned you have ADHD and have been autistic, even though you weren’t aware of that until recently. What was it like for you growing up, as an autistic girl with ADHD?

Maria Davis-Pierre: So I didn’t even get my ADHD diagnosis until 19, until going into to college. I would be considered, I guess, twice exceptional. So in school and, you know, when I was in elementary, middle, and high school, I was in the gifted program. I had an extremely, and still have an extremely high IQ. So I guess that really helped with my ability to mask.

In looking back at my childhood now, I can see how I would really kind of watch the people that were around me and just mimic what they were doing. I really had to do a lot of thinking about conversations, and what to say before saying them. I’ve always been, you know, like socially awkward, weird, whatever people wanna say.

In childhood, it was just, for me, everything that I experienced was so normal. It’s kind of hard to look back and be like, oh, there it is, because it’s still occurring now with my children. So my behaviors and their behaviors all seem so normal to me. So it’s kind of like I can’t be like, oh, yep. Not saying that autism is abnormal, but it was just so like, everything in my life is consistent. So it wasn’t like I can pinpoint like, oh, this is a very much so an autistic characteristic here. So I think that was another struggle for me because everything is just the same with my kids. So we just, it’s always been kind of the same. There’s nothing that was like very traumatic or like, oh my God. Yep. That’s, I can see that. It was just, this is life.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I’d imagine if you have the same neurotype as a parent

Maria Davis-Pierre: mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: And children that, you know, their behavior just seems very, you know, quote unquote normal or just what you would expect. Yeah. It’s like, of course that’s how, you know, that’s how I react to things. So of course that makes sense that they would too.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Exactly. And which probably should have been a big clue when having my kids, because people would be like, you know, you’re not, you’re not overreacting about some of the things that they do, or, you know, you’re, it seems like you’re just so nonchalant about it. And I was like, it’s, it’s common. I do it. So what? You know, now I see. Yeah.

So, you know, but thinking back it’s like, you know, I have safe foods that I really have to have, that was in childhood. Transitions are very hard for me, that was in childhood. I did like routine, but we’ve always been very routine. Even like growing up in my parents’ household. My mom’s an educator, so there’s like, we always had routines. So it wasn’t like it was not having routine, I’d be like, oh my God. Because everything was so consistent in my childhood that it was just like, hmm. So you know, now looking back, I can see like, oh, maybe there was these few times that if my schedule didn’t go right, I would be having anxiety, but I also didn’t show those experiences, those characteristics because I just felt like I couldn’t, so I would constantly be masking in every situation, even at home with my parents. So even if I was anxious, I just kind of kept it inside.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned being twice exceptional. Did you have any kind of anxiety around like grades and things like that?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Mm-hmm. Yes. Testing, which is why I got the ADHD diagnosis in college because that’s when it really became uncontrollable, my anxiety. I would just be like, oh my goodness, I can’t take this. Like, I would just freeze. I would have hard time sleeping. So it actually turned into me going to the mental health services at the university, and that’s how I ended up getting my ADHD diagnosis because I ended up getting accommodations in undergrad.

So yeah, I’ve always had a lot of anxiety because I’d wait until the last minute to do everything because of my executive functioning skills. So I’d wait until the last minute to do projects, anything. And then, you know, in college, the workload is much harsher. So for me, I couldn’t just do the assignment the night before and get an A, so that caused a lot of anxiety and trying to get used to that. Um, because I am a chronic procrastinater, even still.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. So did the accommodations then help once you were able to get those in place?

Maria Davis-Pierre: They helped some. I still wait until the last minute, even with the extensions.

[Maria and Carolyn laugh]

Just being honest and transparent here. Yeah, it was rough for a long time in undergrad, just trying to figure out how to manage that.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And when you were undergrad, cuz you’re a therapist now, were you studying psychology in undergrad?

Maria Davis-Pierre: I was not. I was actually pre-med in undergrad. I wanted to be a pediatrician. And I was pre-med all up until my last year of undergrad, and I realized I don’t like germs and I don’t like seeing like, you know, blood and all of the stuff that I would have to see.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow.

Maria Davis-Pierre: I had a realization like, oh, you’re gonna have to actually, even if that’s not your interest, they’re still gonna make you do these things in medical school. And that was like, okay, you gotta figure something out. And my husband was like, “well, you know…” (He wasn’t my husband at the time.) He was like, “well, you like helping people. Have you thought about therapy?” So I immediately just went and changed my major to sociology and then started the path from there. But yeah, I was pre-med all the way up until my fourth year.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, wow.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: So are you still a practicing therapist?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yes. I’m still practicing in the state of Florida through Autism in Black. But now it’s shifted from my original work and now I just really provide therapy to those who are coming to Autism in Black, the parents and when they need like, parent coaching or they’re having a struggle. So if you’re in the state of Florida, then I provide therapy.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, fabulous. Yeah. I’d love to learn more about Autism in Black, because I know it’s an organization that you started, but there’s a lot of different aspects to it. So I guess at the beginning, what inspired you to start Autism In Black?

Maria Davis-Pierre: My daughter, and our experience in that whole journey of getting her diagnosis. I stated a little bit, but really what happened is at six months, I noticed signs of developmental delay. And I knew then I was like, huh, she could be autistic. And I took it to my husband, he’s a licensed physician, he’s an internist. And he was like, don’t try and diagnose my kid. You diagnose your, your, your clients, you keep that over there. But at 10 months she actually regressed in her speech, and that was like, okay, yeah, we gotta go and start this process.

So I went to the pediatrician. The pediatrician wanted to wait. I was like, well, I don’t know who to go to. You can’t give the diagnosis. Who do I go to? She recommended me to Early Steps in the state of Florida. Other states have different names for it, but it’s before age three. We went through that whole process of all the professionals, you know, looking at her and tracking her behaviors and things of that nature. They, they thought she was autistic, but they were like, she’s too young. So go to a pediatric neurologist so they can give you the diagnosis.

So, went to the pediatric neurologist. He did an MRI that she had to go under for. He did all kinds of genetic testing and he was like, yeah, I do think she’s autistic, but I wanna wait a year and a half. So at that point I was just frustrated when, you know, we hear that early interventions matter, but then you’re talking about waiting till after she’s three. So which one is it? So that is what led me to sit in his office for a week from open to close to get the paperwork.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow.

Maria Davis-Pierre: So that, you know, insurance could cover things like speech and, you know, OT because without an actual diagnosis, insurance isn’t covering it. So that’s the process of how we got her diagnosis.

So then, you know, my colleagues were coming into our home and they were not realizing we were Black people and they were just not taking culture into consideration at all when it came to her, her interventions. So then they deemed us as, um, you know, hard to work with. And I’m like, it’s not that. It’s the fact that she’s not relating, we’re not relating. You can’t use cookie cutter approaches. You have to be able to tailor it to the family and the culture that you’re working with. And in seeing that that was very common, that’s how we started Autism in Black, to really bridge that gap for Black parents, to really provide the support because it is so different for us and our experiences are so different. So that’s how we started Autism in Black all those years ago.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. So yeah, tell me about how you help train healthcare professionals and schools, organizations to be more culturally responsive to the Black autistic community or the Black disabled community.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yeah, so we do a lot of DEI anti-racist work with organizations and schools. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that a lot of organizations who work within our community, they’re working heavily with the Black community. They’ll have a, you know, population of 80% of their clients are Black. But then when you’re looking at their organization and their board, it’s not matching. So of course, the experiences that they’re providing are lacking cultural responsivity because it’s out of their scope, out of their norm. So we really go in and tell them about the Black side of autism. Tell them about the Black side of being Black and disabled. We talk about intersectionality, how to incorporate those types of things into the interventions that you’re doing. Making sure that your provider toolkit is reflective of the people that you’re working with.

That was one of the things that we had to deal with. Um, one of my daughter’s therapists is that they came in with, you know, picture cards of emotions, and all of the cards were of white children. She could not see herself in any of that. They didn’t have hair that looked like hers. She wasn’t connecting with it. They came in with a hairbrush that we’ve never used anything like that in our home. We used a different type of brush, so she couldn’t relate to those type of things. And those are the little things that can keep you from building rapport or keep you from connecting with your client that you’re not even thinking about, but we are, because we’re not connecting to it.

So it’s really about making sure that you are in tune with the client’s culture that you’re going into, making sure that those biases that are natural for a lot of us are in check before you go and start the work. Making sure you’re not adultifying the child, setting up unrealistic goals with the child, that you aren’t saying that the family is resistant when you’re really just not providing cultural care.

So those are the types of things that we go in and do and train on.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. So when you got the feedback yourself from providers that you were resistant, and when it’s told to other Black people who are getting therapy that isn’t culturally responsive, like, is that because, is that because the child isn’t responding to the therapy because they don’t identify with it? Or is it because the family’s kind of questioning or pushing back on some of the methods, like what does that usually look like?

Maria Davis-Pierre: It could look like, so for us it was just, you know, me asking for materials, different materials be used. Me setting up boundaries in my home, or me questioning what’s going on. You know, it was a lot of the biases that came into place with me and that provider. Because when that person was working with other individuals who were doing the same thing, it was met with a much different response.

So for her, she saw it as something of dealing with my culture or my race. She was just plain like, you know, “you’re, you’re being resistant.” But when you’re talking about your other clients, you’re not having that same type of energy. You’re actually like, “oh, they’re an advocate. They’re advocating for their kids! They’re passionate about it!” But I’m angry and upset and saying these are all terms that she used to describe me. Um, so, you know, it was just, I’m just questioning what you’re doing with my child. So what’s the difference between me and this white mother? The only difference is I’m Black. And when asking her about it, you know, she was, “no, no, I can’t.” You know, and it just was the whole thing. So those are the types of things, just doing things that we would do to ask about the care of our children, but the biases are getting in the way and you are perceiving it differently. So now you’re labeling us with all these negative terms that you wouldn’t give someone else of a different, uh, racial background.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it’s, it’s so important as a parent to be an advocate, especially when your child is so young and there’s so many different therapies and not all of the therapies are helpful or good for children.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Exactly.

Carolyn Kiel: And so it’s so important for the parents to be involved. So of course you should be able to ask questions and

Maria Davis-Pierre: Exactly.

Carolyn Kiel: You know, from, what your child’s experiencing and what kind of therapy they’re getting.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Exactly. You know, I have the right to be in the room, you know, with speech and OT. This isn’t a mental health therapy session. It’s speech and OT, and you’re in my house. So you know, I’m going to be around. I’m not gonna leave. I’m gonna see what you’re doing with my two year old child. You know, I’m going to have questions, because it is my profession and because I know a lot of these things, of course I’m gonna have questions. Of course I’m going to question your methods if I feel that they’re not working or ask to see the treatment plan, things of that nature. And, you know, it just was not met with a professional response.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And so now with Autism in Black, how do you help train healthcare professionals in schools? Like do you shadow them while they’re working? Do you provide like conferences and education for them ahead of time? Or what does that usually look like?

Maria Davis-Pierre: It’s dependent on the actual organization, on the school. So we do have a curriculum that we have, that they can take. We do trainings. I don’t really shadow people or do that. I provide them with the tools in a training and then they implement those tools within their work. So it really just depends on what that organization is wanting. Sometimes they will just go ahead and license our curriculum, and then one person will get trained in it, and then they will train the others there. Sometimes it’s a group training that we’re doing over a period of time. Sometimes it’s them hiring me as their consultant, looking over their paperwork, making sure their paperwork is culturally responsive, looking over their standards as an organization, making sure those are culturally responsive. And then also providing the training. Make sure that materials are reflective of those that they’re serving. So it really depends on what the organization is wanting and we kind of tailor it to that.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I think that’s really, really great and powerful tools for people to be able to use and yeah, really, really important to share.

And. Autism in Black, you also have a conference that you run along with it. And actually at the time that we’re recording this, you just finished up your conference that was at the end of April. So yeah, tell me, tell me about that, how the idea for a conference got started and what the goal of the conference is.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yeah. So, the goal and the mission of Autism in Black is really to make sure that we’re getting the information to the Black community because we know that that is one of the biggest issues, is that the information doesn’t get to our community in the same way it gets to other communities, and by the time it gets to our community, usually they’ve moved on to something else. So the information is, is outdated. With that, our biggest thing has been to bridge that gap in many ways. And at first we started with our podcast to try to get the information out there, and then it was like, you know, let’s do something where we’re cultivating this space where we can come together.

So that’s how the conference came about three years ago. It’s like, okay, we’re gonna try out this conference. I was like, we’re gonna see how it goes. I really wasn’t expecting a lot of people. But the first year we had, uh, 300 people and I was like, okay, this is, uh, this is needed.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maria Davis-Pierre: People are responding. I actually need to put a little more effort here into this. Um, so every year we’ve continued to build. And yeah, we just had our third one. The theme of it was, Cultivating the Black Family Experience. We had many, many amazing speakers. We are one of the only, if not the only Black autistic led, Black neurodivergent led conference. So, all of our speakers, well, majority of our speakers are either autistic or neurodivergent. So we’re speaking from our lived experiences in addition to our professional experiences. And I think that that is just so helpful for our community. Like you come in and you get to sit and really learn and see how we’ve had to maneuver through society and what that intersectionality looks like for us, and how we’ve had to, you know, really put a lot of parameters in place to protect ourselves.

So we had Asiatu, we had Nigh Functioning Autism, Schereéya, we had Black Girl, Lost Keys. So we had a lot of amazing speakers just speaking on many different topics. Schereéya did a lovely presentation on autism in the media and how that is portrayed. You know, we had people talking about, Asiatu talked about behaviorism. We had sessions on, you know, all different age ranges of what autism is, right? What it isn’t, went for younger children and then all the way up to adulthood. We had an autistic adult panel session where every single person on the panel was a Black autistic adult. And people got to ask us questions, and we got to talk about our experiences. So, yeah, you know, we really try to cultivate a safe space where people don’t have to code switch, where people don’t have to “mask.” Where you can let down that guard, learn the information, and also talk about your experiences.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm. Wow. That sounds amazing. Just to have so many autistic people, neurodivergent people.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: All together in the same room. Who’s the target audience? Like, who usually attends the conference?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Anybody working with the Black disability community! We have lots of professionals. We have lots of parents who are raising Black autistic children. We have people from universities, we have local universities or universities in the state of Florida that buy group packages for the, their board.

So it really just depends. We have lawyers, doctors, of course we have teachers, so it’s really just anybody and everybody is coming to the conference if they’re working with the population or they’re autistic themselves or they’re raising autistic children.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really cool.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: Again, just to see Black autistic people sharing their own experiences because, you know, we don’t tend to see that, like in the media, it’s still like very white, very male. Like it’s starting, just starting to expand a little bit, but there’s still so far we need to go. So seeing those examples, that’s really great.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yes, so far we have to go. And, you know, I think that’s another issue is like when you see other, you know, like disability conferences or you see other autism conferences, they’re not diverse at all. And they may have one Black speaker or they may talk about, you know, multicultural things, you know, but they’re not really breaking it down for the varying communities.

Or they feel like, you know, “autism has no color, so we should just give general information” and not understanding intersectionality. So my experience is completely different. I have so many worries just about making it home safe. Right? And what, what that is. So just not understanding that intersectionality piece, I think is what is just a disservice to the community as a whole because we, it is completely different for me.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I mean, even just the simple topic of “masking,” and I think a lot of what I see, at least with, you know, the white autistic social media is, you know, “try to mask less! And be your authentic self! And part of realizing you’re autistic is masking less!” It’s like, okay, but there are, you know, there are a lot of people where unmasking is not always safe.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Not always safe.

Carolyn Kiel: So it’s irresponsible, potentially, to tell everyone that their goal should be completely unmasking. It’s not realistic and it’s not always safe.

Maria Davis-Pierre: It’s not, you know, and then we also have to think about the code switching aspect. So yeah, we have to think about our safety first, you know? And I think that that is really what’s lacking in a lot of conversations. You know, not thinking about how Black parents really have to, what I call the Black side of parenting. We really parent differently because it’s a fine line for us regarding keeping our children, you know, children. And then also telling them about the harsh reality of the world because of their skin color.

Like the decisions that a lot of Black parents make are based on fear and protection. And I think people don’t realize that, and then shame them because they’re not understanding. And I think that just causes so much of a rift and a divide because you’re not thinking about that intersectionality piece. You know? The conversations aren’t thinking about how behaviorism is really weaved into our whole society when it comes to Black people, and that we have to have broader conversations about how the whole healthcare system is harmful to the Black community, and we really need to be making sure that it’s not just taken out of ABA, but every single place. Because there are healthcare professionals who have commented on my stuff, who don’t understand intersectionality, who don’t wanna have those conversations. There’s Black people going in hospitals and not coming out. You know? So the conversation about it needs to be so much broader because for us, we experience it as soon as we step out of our home.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. It’s important for people to really understand that. Yeah.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: And you mentioned as part of Autism in Black, that it, it started as a podcast. So tell me about what kind of topics do you talk about on the podcast and is it similar to what’s covered in the conference?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Yeah, so, so our podcast came after we started our organization. Yes. But yes, it’s very similar to the conference. We are talking about all things autism in Black, so that Black side of what we experience and also just getting that information to us.

So we may have, you know, a school psychologist or a clinical psychologist come on and really talk about the biases that are within evaluations or how to make sure that you are, um, getting, uh, culturally responsive evaluations done. Because we know that one thing that happens with us is that we get misdiagnosed, right?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Maria Davis-Pierre: So we may have a doctor come on, or we may have an educator come on, or an advocate come on and talk about, this is what you need to do to make sure that your child or you isn’t taken advantage of. So it’s really about getting the information to us and then also talking about how that particular topic impacts us differently.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, and I guess it’s another medium to be able to get your message out to a broad range of, of people, you know, if you’ve got the conference with people in person, and then the podcast that anyone can listen to.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Anyone can listen to. And we try to keep that in mind. Like all of our speakers, we try to make sure that they have a spot on our podcast. So if you can’t afford a conference or come to the conference, you can still listen to the podcast and get a little bit of that information so that you can apply it and use it.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really powerful. Wow. So overall, what are your biggest goals for Autism in Black?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Oh wow. That’s a good question there.

Um, I think one that is continue bridging that gap for us. I really want to eventually have Autism in Blacks in every state. That’s something that we’re moving towards now. We just started a community and we’re going to start having, you know, you know, Autism in Black meetings in every state. So I really wanna make sure that we are as accessible as possible to people, that our trainings continue to be national and international. So we just wanna continue to grow and make sure that we are making a platform for Black autistic people, Black disabled people, and that people understand our experiences and don’t try to continue to keep us out of conversations, that our voice is needed.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. That’s really important. And that’s so cool to hear that you’re expanding, that your goal is to expand to all 50 states. Cuz this is absolutely needed everywhere. Wonderful.

Maria, how can people get in touch with you if they wanna learn more about Autism in Black?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Sure! You can go right to our website, AutismInBlack.org. If you’re interested in getting the replays of the conference, you can purchase those at AutismInBlack.org/conference2023replays. You can join our membership community, AutismInBlack.org/membership. I’m on social media. I’m most active on Instagram, autisminblack. So yeah, you can take one of those methods.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, great. Yeah, I’ll put links to your Instagram and the conference website as well, so that people can click on it from the show notes.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Thank you.

Carolyn Kiel: Very cool. Yeah. Maria, as we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can do to help or support you?

Maria Davis-Pierre: Sure. One thing I really stress is that, for the Black community, is continue advocating, advocating in the way that you need to. Don’t be ashamed or feel ashamed either because you’re raising an autistic child or because you’re autistic yourself. Your experiences are your experiences, and don’t let others shame that for you.

For everyone else, I really want you to use your privilege to continue to advocate for, you know, marginalized communities, because it is tough out here, and if we’re truly calling ourselves advocates, then that is a part of the work that you have to do. You have to think about marginalized communities. You have to think about the Black community. You have to think about the LGBTQIA community. You have to think about the disability community if you are true advocates. So take that into consideration when you’re out here advocating. Advocate for marginalized communities as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. So important to keep that in mind.

Maria, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was great talking with you. Thank you so much.

Maria Davis-Pierre: Thank you for having me.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend. Give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time!