Episode 192: Autistic Music Therapist and Singer – Swara Swami

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Swara Swami, an autistic music therapist who’s worked with neurodivergent children and adults. She has her Bachelor’s in Music Therapy from Berklee College of Music and is currently doing her Master’s in Expressive Arts Therapy, specializing in Clinical Mental Health Counseling at Lesley University.

She’s also a singer who’s worked with several well known Indian musical artists as part of the Berklee Indian Ensemble, where she also worked on a Grammy nominated album. She is an autistic self advocate who’s very passionate about autism and mental health awareness. Swara, welcome to the podcast.

Swara Swami: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I’m really happy to have you here. You know, I’ve really enjoyed following your posts on Instagram. You talk a lot about advocacy and you share your performing and artistic expressions as well. So I’m excited to hear your story today.

So I guess, just starting out, how did you realize that you’re autistic?

Swara Swami: I always knew that I was different from everyone. Like, I didn’t speak until the age of three. Like, I could sing, I could only like sing then. I lacked social and communication skills. And I used to stim a lot. I never realized that was stimming. I was just like moving a lot. And and then yeah. So I always realized, you know, that I’m different from everyone. I knew I was neurodivergent, but I was not sure what it was exactly. So yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: So how did you find out? Like, do you wind up getting a diagnosis later in your life, that kind of cleared up, or made it clear that you were autistic?

Swara Swami: Yeah, I got diagnosed at the age of 16. So like, I went through a series of misdiagnoses and and possible diagnosis. And then at the age of 16, you know, I found out that I was autistic.

Carolyn Kiel: Did it surprise you to get that diagnosis of autism? I know you said you always kind of felt different, but I guess kind of finding out that you were autistic, like what were your feelings around that when you, when you first found out?

Swara Swami: I wasn’t really surprised, like I, I felt relieved though. At least I know now that why I was different. And, like, I have an identity now. So that was the feeling I had. So yeah, and even with my loved ones and all that, you know, like with my family, they knew that I wasn’t a neurotypical and you know, it explained everything to all of us.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of, well, I guess people have different reactions when they get a diagnosis, like later in life, whether they’re teenagers or adults. And, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is relief to have the answers. And, you know, it’s usually a whole mixture of feelings and such. So yeah, I’m glad I provided some answers finding that out.

So you basically spent most of your childhood growing up knowing that you were, you know, different or neurodivergent in some way, before you found out that you were autistic. So, you know, what was it like growing up as an autistic girl in India, like either in school or at home?

Swara Swami: Yeah, my school life was very difficult, actually. So I wasn’t understood and accepted by my peers, and even my teachers didn’t understand me, and I wasn’t getting any accommodations. And like with home, there were like some tensions, because there were, like I said earlier, I went through like a series of misdiagnosis and possible diagnosis then. None of us are sure, like, why I wasn’t like everyone. But my mom, like, she’s no more now, she went into this field for me, and I felt I got more understanding from her. And then later from all my other family members too.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh that’s good. And I’m curious, like, how is autism or even neurodivergence in general, how is that viewed in India? Because I only really have like a view of kind of how it’s seen in the United States. So I’m just curious, how, how do people see it in India?

Swara Swami: It is a huge stigma in India. Like, I think it’s like they have like a lack of understanding of, of neurodivergence and even mental health. Like I mean, people don’t understand why a person is like that. People are not aware, like, like there is something called neurodivergence. There are autistic people. That’s something people just just don’t, don’t get it here. And like it’s, It’s like, it’s a little, it’s like really, we are like kind of behind, I would say, but like we’re slowly getting there as well. So yeah, that’s, that’s how it is in India.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that about, you know, views of neurodivergence and mental health in general, because you now work in the mental health field, you know, as a music therapist. So how did you choose music therapy as a profession?

Swara Swami: So like, I went through a troubled childhood and during that time, music helped me so much. And like, like I said earlier, I could sing even before I could speak. So music used to help me in like connecting, communicating, like, it just made me who I am today. And I realized if music could help me, it could help so many other people like me.

And my mom, like I said, she had gone into this field and she was a special educator. She also had a PhD. And then she had her own center, like where she used to work with disabled children. And I used to volunteer there. And I realized how much I like working with children. It was, it was fun.

And I was studying at A. R. Rahman’s college, KM Music Conservatory in Chennai. And people from Berklee had made a visit there and I was like, so impressed. And I found out like they had a Bachelor’s for Music Therapy program. I decided to make this my dream to attend there. And I found, I found out that they had a transfer program in Malaysia. So I studied there for two and a half years. Then I transferred to Berklee, where I did my major and and then like just continued from there.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, wow. Yeah. So you’ve studied internationally, like, and you’ve actually traveled and studied in many different countries, including the United States and I think China as well. So what was that, what’s that like as an autistic person? Because I mean, everyone’s different, but some autistic people kind of find it hard to be out of their routine. Others really love to travel. Like, what was your experience living in other countries as an autistic person?

Swara Swami: Yeah, it was challenging, like, especially in China and Malaysia, it was very difficult. And as an autistic, definitely like adjusting was very hard.

I remember like when I moved to China for the first time, everything was like alien to me. The people, the language, the accent, and I had to do so much to fit in, had to even get an accent there. And in China, at least like I was with my family, but my first year in Malaysia, I was on my own. I really struggled with cooking, doing chores, paying the rent. Everything was all new to me and I’ve, I’ve never, this was like, I never had such an experience. I never like thought about this or had any idea. And then my family later moved to Malaysia for me because I was struggling with this a lot.

I think life in the U. S. was different though. I became like more independent and open there. There were a few tensions, but mostly I had a wonderful time there. And I think what I really appreciated there was like, no matter all the tensions, you will always find your people there, you will always like find a place there, and you’re never alone there. And I felt like I found my people there, and Boston is like my second home.

And one thing I wanted to share is that I’m also like a believer of intersectionality. Like I feel like that’s like very important. Like, so along with my autism, I also want to say that race played a part as well. So I faced racism in both China and Malaysia. I was also bullied heavily in China. So one thing people used to say, especially like in China, I heard this a lot. Like they said that they don’t like Indians, but they like the other Indians because they’re nice and cool and they don’t like, and they don’t act like Indians, something I used to hear that a lot.

And sometimes I wonder. Maybe if I didn’t lack communication, like communication and social skills, I wouldn’t have faced this. So that was something I used to think, but, and then they would have considered me nice as well. I wouldn’t have been so misunderstood. And now I’m like, no, like this thinking is just not right. I mean, this is discrimination. And and since they also bullied me for, for being very different, yes. But in the US like, I didn’t face anything like that. Like like I said, I found, I found my people there. And it could also be because I was in a bubble and, you know, I’ve always lived in the same city for five and a half years. And maybe because that’s how I felt there. But that, but US is somewhere, because I found my people there, I started being open about my autism diagnosis there. Like, that’s the first time that I opened it because, you know, I felt, I got the acceptance there.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, and I would imagine that, especially being in like music schools, you know, whether, whether students know it or not, I think there are a lot of neurodivergent people in performing arts and music as well. So yeah, I’m glad that you were able to, to find your people there. And yeah, as you’re looking, looking at intersectionality, it’s hard to separate, like, you know, what is racism? What is ableism or discrimination because of, you know, a neurotype? But as you said, it all, it all comes together. So yeah, that’s really interesting that you’ve had all of those experiences because you’ve just lived in so many different places.

Do you get to still go back to Boston a lot? You mentioned that you’re in India right now, but you still are going to school in Boston. So like part of a hybrid program?

Swara Swami: Yeah. So it’s a hybrid program. So every summer, like, so July, I’ll be going to Boston and then my other semesters are online. Another time I’m in India and then during the summer, I go to Boston.

Carolyn Kiel: Right, that’s really cool. I think it’s great that you’ve seen like so much of the world, even, you know, as a student and just gotten to experience all those different cultures as you’ve furthered your education.

You’re still in school for this, but I’m just curious about your, the work experiences that you’ve had so far in music therapy. Like, are there specific challenges that you faced as a therapist who’s autistic and disabled yourself, or what’s it been like so far?

Swara Swami: Yeah, there were definitely challenges and I am going to be very honest about it. And you know, I just can’t like, you know, hide it because I have to say that it is challenging. Like first time, like I was rejected for the music therapy major at Berklee. And the reasons they gave me was like lack of eye contact and lack of awareness. So basically I felt like they’re rejecting me for being autistic because these are literally my traits, lack of eye contact, lack of awareness. So, the second time, I made it. And mostly like experience has been good so far. But there were some tensions as well. Like because I noticed like how ableism also exists in this field. And like, I wouldn’t like say it like in full depth, but like many people in the field are all about like autism awareness, neurodiversity and everything, mental health awareness and, and all that, but would be always surprised if they come across a disabled person in their own field. That’s something I’ve noticed a lot.

And currently, like after you finish the program, you have to take a board certification exam where, to be board certified music therapist. And it’s been like four years and I’ve had trouble passing that exam because I’ve not received any proper support for passing. Like, the exam is like all multiple choice and I really struggled with it. Because they give you four options. Two are definitely wrong. One is possibly right. And the other is the right answer. So, you know, choosing the right answer for me is always very hard. So like, due to that, I didn’t get a job in the US because I wasn’t board certified. So I had to come back to India.

And and then there was one place like I used to stay in the city called Nashik earlier, so like there is a center called V-Excel. It’s like so the main branch is in Chennai, which is in the south. And I worked at the Nashik branch. And I introduced like music therapy there with the clients and and everything for now, like and I quit because I wanted to focus on my master’s.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it is because I, I would think that we really should have more representation among music therapists or therapists in general of people who are disabled themselves or are neurodivergent because a lot of times those are the clients or the people that you’re working with and supporting. So there’s at least some more understanding. But yeah, it is kind of ironic or strange in a way that people are surprised that autistic and disabled people would want to be therapists, but I don’t know. I think a lot of us kind of wind up developing a big interest in therapy because we want to figure out behavior. We want to figure out people. So I, I see it as a very natural thing. And then of course, if you’re a singer and a performer, that connection between music and therapy makes a lot of sense too.

And you’re also, well, you said you’ve been singing, well, probably singing even before you started talking. So you’ve, it sounds like you’ve been a singer pretty much your whole life. So like what kind of music do you like to sing?

Swara Swami: So little bit about my music background. So I was like semi trained in Hindustani music, which is like part of Indian classical music. And then there was Carnatic music, which is another Indian classical music. Like I tried to learn that from my mom. She was trained in that. But I left that, as I wasn’t into it. And when I was in KM Music Conservatory A. R. Rahman’s college, which I was speaking about earlier, like there they were teaching Western classical. And again, I was not into it.

I was always into like contemporary music and that’s what I was like mainly trained in. So both Western and Indian contemporary, and, you know, those are the kind of songs that I’d like to sing. But basically, like, mainly I sing whatever I’m in the mood for, just like how I listen to music. Like, I just listen to whatever I’m in the mood for, same, same with singing. Like I just sing what, what I feel like singing at that, at that moment.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really cool. Yeah. And you have a Grammy nomination as well, which is amazing. So I know you mentioned a little bit about it in, in your intro, but like, tell me about how that came about, that opportunity.

Swara Swami: Yeah. So I was part of the Berklee Indian Ensemble during my time at Berklee and I worked with many popular artists from India like Vijay Prakash, Shreya Ghoshal, Indian Ocean, and I learned so many pieces during my time with them, and so many originals as well. So together we recorded many songs, and that came out as an EP called “Shuruaat”. And the album was nominated for the Best World Music Album at the Grammys. So yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really cool. That’s great that you had opportunities to work with, like, really prominent Indian musical artists while you were at Berklee.

So it sounds like that was a really great and expansive program to be in.

You do advocacy on social media about autism and mental health in general. So what inspired you to start advocating on social media about those issues?

Swara Swami: When I went to Berklee, like there I used to write articles about autism and mental health. There’s this college run blog called The Odyssey, so I used to write articles there. But that time, my views were like, really different then, because like, even there, I used to like, so, you know, think about Light It Up Blue and puzzle pieces and everything, which is, which is not right, and which I find out many years later.

And during the pandemic, I followed, like, a lot of neurodivergent accounts, met with so many neurodivergent people like me. And I think during that time, a lot of incidents happened also, like Sia’s film Music, which had a huge controversy. There was the Yale study, the Walmart doll, and all that. I understood so much about myself there, so much about autism and I started unlearning everything and I started coming to terms with my autism diagnosis.

I was still surprised, you know, that people still had this thinking of autism and mental health and that we’ve only learned them through books and movies and not from lived experiences. So I felt it’s important that I advocate through my lived experiences.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I think, I know I certainly did make connections with a lot of neurodivergent people during the pandemic on social media. And yeah, sometimes I forget that if you’re not, a lot of times, if you’re not learning from people who have those experiences themselves, you just have a very different view of autism and mental health. And at least in the United States, I think still, it’s really shaped by movies and, you know, honestly, a lot of organizations and people who aren’t autistic themselves. So yeah, it was a lot of unlearning for me to do as well.

Swara Swami: Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: How do you choose what kind of things to talk about on your social media?

Swara Swami: What kind of things, like again, like it’s like, is just something that I think of randomly. So I introspect a lot. I like always think, think so much. And when I think about something, I feel like I should share it. I mean, I feel it’s important that you know, people understand from my experience. So like, it just happens out of the blue. And of course, like, you know, there are days, there’s like Autism Awareness Month, and then there’s the Neurodiversity Week, and and then we have National Mental Health Month, so of course I try to post a lot there also. And even if not there, I would still post it.

Carolyn Kiel: And you also post a lot of videos of you, like, singing or dancing or both to different music that I guess, you know, whatever moves you that day to dance to. I really think that that’s a great expression and I really like your singing and dancing too, so I like following for that as well.

Swara Swami: Thank you.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah so, how can people, like, get in touch with you or follow you on social media if they want to learn more about the type of advocacy that you do?

Swara Swami: So yeah, of course you can follow me on Instagram. It’s at swaraswami and I post like my singing videos, dancing videos, like reels and some funny reels and then, and then I share about autism and mental health, my, my journey and everything.

And I have a page on Facebook as well called swara, but that’s just for singing. So, and same with YouTube. I think it’s at singerswara and yeah, where also I post my singing videos. So, and then when I was in the US, like I used to use TikTok a lot, but it’s banned in India, so. So, you know, every time when I’m in the U.S. I use it and even there I post a lot of content. There’s like so many singing, dancing videos and even like videos on autism, mental health, like even like top, even some other topics like, like body shaming, which I went through a lot. And like you can still watch my videos there. Like it’s at swaraswami93.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, cool. I’ll get your social media links and I’ll put them in the show notes so that people can follow you from there.

Well, Swara, thank you so much for talking to me today. As we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Swara Swami: Like one thing I want to say is that I have a speech that, like many autistics, we have a speech that is like blunt and straightforward and, but we all mean very well. So that’s something like important that you all understand and definitely like keep accepting us and for who we are.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Really important to keep in mind for everyone. Wonderful. Yeah. Well, thank you, Swara. It was great talking with you and thanks so much for being on my podcast.

Swara Swami: Yeah. Likewise.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.