Episode 197: Creating an inclusive world through dance – with Marisa Hamamoto

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Before we get started with today’s episode, I want to give you a quick heads-up about some of the content. During this conversation, my guest talks about her experience with sexual assault, as well as having, and recovering from, a stroke. There’s a little bit of swearing during the episode as well. If any of those are difficult topics for you, please use your discretion when listening to this episode today.

On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Marisa Hamamoto, the first professional dancer to be named People Magazine Women Changing the World. Marisa is a stroke survivor with two invisible disabilities, PTSD and autism. She’s the founder of Infinite Flow, an award-winning nonprofit and professional dance company that employs disabled and non-disabled artists with the mission to foster inclusion. Marisa is a speaker, thought leader, performing artist and multidimensional creator on the rise, seeking to creatively inspire inclusion, innovation and transformation through movement, dance, and storytelling. Marisa, welcome to the podcast.

Marisa Hamamoto: Thank you so much, Carolyn, for having me.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I’m so excited to talk about your story, which is incredibly amazing in itself. All the things that you’ve, you’ve come through and gone through to build this amazing dance company that really highlights the art and creativity and possibilities of all kinds of people.

You’ve been a dancer since a very early age. Tell me about your story. What was your experience like as a young dancer?

Marisa Hamamoto: Absolutely. So quick visual description of myself. So I am a Japanese-American woman with long black hair. Today I am wearing a, a pink and red and black kind of blouse. And I have a pretty blank background today. So thank you so much again, Carolyn, for having me on the show.

So about my dancing. I’ve been dancing my whole life just, just in, in a short nutshell. But how I got into dance was, I grew up in Irvine, California during the eighties and nineties. And for anyone that doesn’t know where Irvine is, Irvine is, is a suburb of Los Angeles, so it’s about 50 miles south of LA. Irvine back in the eighties and nineties was a predominantly white city, and my family being Japanese American, we were a minority. At school, I got picked on for looking different, but the highlight of my week was this once a week ballet class after school where I found myself as the only person of color in class. But something about moving my body to music with the other girls made me feel like I belonged. And so from just a very early age of like six and seven, I may have not been able to articulate this in words, but I had discovered the power of dance to unite people together.

Dancing quickly became a passion of mine. I, I was someone that was quite shy. I didn’t like to speak, which is very interesting because I’m a, I’m a professional speaker today! But anyways, I didn’t like to speak, so dancing kind of gave me this outlet to express myself and it was comfortable. Something about the dancing made me feel like I belonged. So it just quickly became my passion.

So when I was 12 I saw this beautiful performance of the New York City Ballet at the local theater, and it was just so beautiful. I was just so mesmerized by the beauty and I just could not help, help but think, “wow. That’s what I wanna become when I grow up. I want to become a professional ballerina.” So I had made up my mind by the end of New York City Ballet’s Sleeping Beauty that I was going to one day become a professional ballerina, but I really didn’t know what I was getting into. And so for the next, for my entire teenage years, I lived in, in this duality where I knew in my gut that dance belonged to everyone. Yet the dance industry, the world of ballet, made it only seem like dance was only accessible and available to a select few with a certain body type, with a certain capacity to move your limbs.

And so this duality was really frustrating. You know, I was told over and over that my body wasn’t right for dance. You’re too big, you’re too curvy. You don’t have the right feet, you’re not flexible enough. I mean, the list goes on and on and, you know, and I’ve even gotten the, well, you know, let’s put you at the end of the line because you’re a little darker than everyone. I was in this duality, but in, in, in my gut, there was always a part of me that said, “I am born to be a dancer, and dance is for every body.” But you know, kind of not, not knowing that there are other paths outside of becoming a professional ballerina with the American Ballet Theater, which, you know, I kind of got sucked into that world believing that that was the only path of success as a dancer. It was a very frustrating time, I would say.

Now there is one thing that, I know that we’re gonna talk about Infinite Flow, my dance company at some point here. But there is one moment during my high school years that defined my life or defined what I do today. And I didn’t even know that until very recently actually, when I realized, “wow, that was, that, that moment was pretty profound!” And just to kind of explain so, you know, at 12 made a decision to become a ballerina, kept on hitting walls. Ballet was supposed to be this time outside of school that gave me a lot of joy. But it was very, you know, it was a very hard time to be rejected and constantly being told that you’re not good enough.

I was going to graduate high school early. At the end of junior high school year, I had enough credits to graduate. However, my parents insisted that I graduate from a quote unquote “real high school” with real people around me. And it’s, sorry I skipped the whole section, but I homeschooled and we’ll get into the whole homeschool thing cuz that’s actually related to my autism.

But but anyways, we did some research and we found a performing arts high school two hours away from Los Angeles by the name of Idyllwild Arts Academy. It was a private boarding school, a performing arts school. And I was able to get a scholarship to this school, and otherwise I don’t think we would’ve been able to afford this school. But anyways, this school was known not only for its really awesome academics and arts education, but it was also known for its diversity and inclusion. Gay kids got to be gay, and I think 15 to 20% of the student body were international students. So just naturally, multiculturalism was really celebrated on campus.

And this was the first year, I think, in my schooling where I really felt like I belonged. And I had a really great year. Dorm life was fun and I made friendships and it was just a place where I, I felt like I was able to be myself. And so I just, you know, being in the state of gratitude that I, you know, thank you to my parents to just kind of pushing me to kind of do some research and find a school that where I can belong.

You know, year went great. At the end of the school year, the final dance concert was a student choreographed concert. And there was 36 students in the dance department, 12 seniors. And the 12 seniors, including myself, we had an opportunity to choreograph a work in this show. We were assigned to pick the cast, pick the music, and turn that into the office. So that’s what we did. A couple days later, I decided to sneak into the dance studio a little earlier than everyone, because I just wanted to see which of my friends and my classmates had selected me into their work.

So I entered this dim dance studio with a heavy backpack on my back and walking towards the department bulletin board. And I stand there and I look up and down the piece, the three sheets of paper, and I notice that my name is missing, that I don’t find my name anywhere except for my own work as a choreographer. And I look up and down again, and my name is still not there. And, you know, I started to cry. It’s one thing to be rejected by authority and institutions. It’s another thing to be rejected by your own peers. And so the fact that my own classmates and friends, or people that I thought were my friends, didn’t select me was really hurtful. And we’re approaching the end of senior year and it just felt like, I felt like I was, I was betrayed. Like, you know, I was betrayed by this plan that was, that was where I was supposed to graduate high school in this inclusive environment. And here I am excluded all over.

But then when I looked up and down the three sheets of paper for a third time, I noticed something else. And that something else was that seven other students, mostly in the lower grades, were also not included in the cast. And I was like, “Hmm. This doesn’t seem right. I mean, this is Idyllwild Arts Academy. It’s known for its diversity and inclusion. And oh my gosh, this is a student choreography concert that everybody should be able to participate in. This, this isn’t some professional, major production. You know, come on, let’s, this is a student, student, you know, dance concert. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn and experience, you know, experience this.”

And those feelings of injustice and wrong were just so strong in me that in that moment, I took out a pencil out of my backpack and wrote down all seven names into my own cast. And honestly, I barely knew these seven dancers, seven younger dancers. Yet by the time showtime came around, you know, I knew them well and I’ll say that a few of them are Facebook friends of mine today. And, you know, we had a blast. And even though I was definitely very new at choreographing I, I can definitely confirm that I did my best to really utilize each of their unique talents into whatever I created. And one day, maybe I can find that video.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm!

Marisa Hamamoto: So that year I was named Dance Major of the Year at commencement.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow!

Marisa Hamamoto: But the bigger win was this: that since I graduated high school in the year of 2000, there was a policy placed in the dance department that ensured that all students, all dance students participated in the student choreography concert. And here we are 20 plus years later and that policy is still there. And so that’s when I realized that, wow, my small actions can lead to big change. And that was also the moment that I took myself out of the seat of the victim and put myself into the driver’s seat. That, you know, when we come across kind of challenges, you know, we can ask ourselves, well, who else is left out, what can I do, and how can I serve? And I didn’t know it at that time, but taking out this pencil and writing down seven names basically has impacted what I do today.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah, I think a lot of times when we see injustice, we wonder like, well, what could I possibly do about it? It’s such a large, big problem, but as

Marisa Hamamoto: mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: your story demonstrates, it can be, you can start with yourself and you can start small and you can start including people in your own life and your work. And your actions have had a lasting impact, certainly on those students and also on the school. And I can definitely see the sort of the, the start of Infinite Flow and the ultimate inclusion of that and making art where everyone can participate, every kind of dancer and artist.

After high school, you continued to dance, and I know you had some very challenging situations and, and obstacles that you faced from there. So yeah, tell me about after you graduated and what your dancing career and activities looked like then.

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah. So after high school, after a big argument with my father, I actually chose initially not to go to college.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And decided to pursue what was in my heart, which at that time was becoming a professional ballerina. However, that didn’t fly. And after a couple years, and also getting injured, having a back injury, I, I quickly, well, not quickly, but I will say, you know, after a couple years, I said, you know what? I think all these teachers that have been telling me for years that I’m just not made for this are right. You know?

And so let’s just say I was spiritually pretty torn apart as well. So I literally quit dancing. I remember I was in New York City giving myself one last chance to audition for stuff. But I remember, you know, that day where I literally took my dance shoes, my dance clothes, and put them into the dumpster, saying, I’m done. You know? Oh my gosh. I don’t think I’ve ever said that, ev ev ever told that actually on a podcast before, but it was, but yeah, that was like the way that I quit.

Anyways, after that you know, I, I moved back home with my parents for a moment to kind of think through what I wanted to do next, then. More than what I wanted to do next. I knew that I, that the, the obvious path you know, especially coming from an Asian family, was to go to college. And so my parents were like, okay, well, you know, let’s, let’s do college.

And so I had to reapply to a bunch of colleges. But there’s a part of me that just was feeling really uneasy. You know, I was always like this student that was ahead of everyone.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And then here I am, I’m three years behind my own class, and I was just feeling really like I, I was feeling a little bit like a failure altogether, and I, I just knew that I needed to change, like, have a drastic change if I was gonna do the college thing.

So, long story short, after some conversations with my parents, we decided that I would go to school in Japan.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And, you know, being fourth generation Japanese-American born between a third generation Japanese-American father and a mother directly from Japan. You know, I did grow up bilingual and bicultural, which is well, maybe not the bicultural part, is kind of unusual for a fourth generation Japanese-American person. I mean, language is usually lost from the third generation, I would say.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: So I was fluent, but I really didn’t know my own culture. So I felt like, well, this is a great time for me to, you know, live in the country of my blood. And so I ended up at Keio University in, in Tokyo. And Keio was kind of like a Harvard Ivy League ish school, I would say, in Japan. It’s very academic. It’s kind of got that Ivy vibe. And so I didn’t go to school for the arts at all. But there was a part of me that wanted to continue working in dance in some capacity. So initially, I, initially, when I entered university, I had this vision of becoming a doctor for dancers.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh!

Marisa Hamamoto: And I got myself into sports biomechanics. I was just interested in learning about the human body altogether. But once I got into sports biomechanics and got into the sports sciences, I started to kind of wonder, well, maybe if I studied this stuff really well, I can actually become a better dancer. You know?

So there was that part. And then the other part was that I was having a really hard time fitting in, in Japan. You know, it’s very interesting because 99% of people in Japan are Japanese. They “look” quote unquote, “look” like me, yet I go to this country and I still feel like I don’t fit in. And some of this just had to do with the fact that I grew up in the States. So therefore, you know, I might look like everyone, but I’m not like everyone, you know. And so where I actually found belonging and peace all over was dance. So I started taking dance class outside of campus. I started occasionally participating in different shows and you know, started freelancing around as a dancer.

And that’s where I was starting to find connection and belonging all over. And the dance bug hit me all over, like, and I think by the time junior year came around, I was like, you know, when I graduate college, I’m gonna pursue this dance dream all over again. So between junior and senior year, I started to, you know, in addition to school, working part-time as a English teacher and also as a Japanese English translator and interpreter, I was dancing, I was training. And I, where I was heading was, okay. After I graduate, I’m gonna go to Europe and do the whole audition thing.

Senior year came around and I was feeling pretty good for the fact that I had a close to 4.0 GPA despite doing school and in a language that’s not quite my, my strong language, Japanese. And you know, and I was dancing quite a bit. Part-time work was okay. And I, I, I was feeling like I, I had actually, I was feeling like I had my shit together in many ways.

But one day, July 26th, 2006, I was taking a contemporary dance class late at night in the middle of Tokyo. And it was just one of those days where like my body felt good. Like I, my body was flying through space. It was just one of those good dance days that was where, you know, you don’t really have many of those good dance days. But in the middle of that, I felt my elbows tingle, and then momentarily fell to the ground. I couldn’t move my arms, I couldn’t move my legs, and I found myself completely paralyzed from the neck down. I remember someone came over and lifted my arm, yet I couldn’t feel her hand on my arm. I was carried to the hospital and a couple days later I was diagnosed with something called spinal cord infarction, also known as spinal stroke, and was told by the doctor that I may never be able to walk or dance again.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. That had to be such just a, a terrifying experience. You know, just having this come out of nowhere, and then of course, you’re not in your home country, so you’re away from home and you’re in the hospital and you’re getting this news but somehow you recovered which, which, like physically, which is incredible.

So what, what was it like in, in the hospital and how did you recover from that?

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah. I mean, the long story short is, you know, two months later I did walk out of the hospital. And today, I do have a left hand that’s slightly slightly paralyzed, still paralyzed, partially paralyzed. I have a left side, like my left side of my torso is numb, and today it’s a little bit number than other days. But besides that, I do not consider myself physically disabled.

During the two months in the hospital to be very, to be very honest with you, it’s kind of a blur right now. Like, but I’ll just say that, you know, at the acute stage, you know, I really couldn’t move anything from the neck down. I couldn’t feel anything from the neck down. My organs were quote unquote paralyzed. For example, it’s like, it’s like my brain would say, I wanna go pee. And I couldn’t get to the bathroom on my own. And so you know, in the hospital bed I was in, on the right side of my head was something called a nurse call button. So I would bonk the button with my head to call the nurse. The nurse would hoist me out of the bed, put me in a wheelchair, wheel me 10 feet to the bathroom, lift me up, put me on the toilet, put my pants down. I mean, that was, that was the drill.

So in Japan, Japan’s got these fancy toilets, fancy like bidet toilets, and a lot of stalls have these fancy bidets. And with the bidet comes this little kind of device on the wall where you can press these buttons for water and for to dry and all this stuff. And so anyways, on this device was a clock. And so on the clock I can check what time I sat down onto that toilet and I can tell when, what time I might leave.

Anyways, so I’m sitting on the toilet, the nurse has gone outside of the bathroom. And I would sit there forever, and nothing would come out. But after some time, something would come out. And at first it was frustrating, but then I noticed that every day, the time to go pee became a little shorter each day. So I think the first time I timed myself, I think it was like 32 minutes or something, but a couple days later it was at 30. And I realized, oh, okay, perhaps my body is just slow and this is just a matter of just time. And I can either, either look at the situation as bad or I can think, think of this as progress. And so I’ll say that that was the, you know, seeing that the time was getting shorter and shorter was encouraging.

But anyways, so in my case, I, I do think that my recovery is maybe unusual how much I did, and I don’t know why. Like, when people ask me, so how did you recover so much? And I say, I don’t know. You know, maybe it was the grace of nature.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: But what I will also say is that once I was able to take a couple steps, which was about three and a half weeks or so, they sent me to physical therapy and occupational therapy, you know, which was still in the same hospital. And I would, you know, be given a list of exercises on this sheet of paper to do for physical therapy. And then, you know, same thing with occupational therapy. And I remember like with the, on the physical therapy sheet, like there was an exercise, for example, that said: Lift your knee 10 times.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And I’ll be like, well, HOW do we lift that knee? And in what rhythm? Is it turned out? Turned in? How high? You know? And as a dancer, it’s like, you know, you’re not just gonna lift your knee 10 times. It’s like the intention behind that knee, you know, that you lift.

So what ended up happening was instead of spending just an hour in that physical therapy and occupational therapy room, I would spend three, four hours in there. And this is before iPhones. So I didn’t really have a device to really play music. So I would imagine music in my head, and I would literally do these exercises, you know, with music in mind. But then I would also incorporate like all the rhythmical technical things I learned in dance and also like, you know, putting intention into the movement.

So if there is anything I did at that time that might be a little different from the average patient out there, it’s that. But I, I don’t have any like, scientific evidence saying that that is the reason why I was able to physically recover.

However I will say more than the physical recovery, the emotional, psychological, mental recovery was a lot bigger for me. The doctor said, “well, you know, this may or may not happen again. Who knows?” And so when you’re kind of put into that place of being in limbo, it’s like well, like what? I might have to go through this whole paralysis again?

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And so even though I left the hospital feeling a little bit on a high, on the flip end I was in this state of fear. And I’ll say that the state of fear kind of blew up a lot bigger than the state of feeling like everything is okay.

The thing about the stroke is that the stroke triggered a lot of other trauma from my life, and that a lot of that trauma was actually connected directly to dance, all the rejection that I had endured. But also I think the biggest thing that I was triggered by was when I was 19 years old, I was raped by one of my ballet teachers who also didn’t believe in me. And the stroke felt like a curse from this person. Like, Hey, you know, I told you you’re not made to be a dancer, so you shouldn’t be dancing, so I’m just gonna curse you with the stroke. And obviously at this time of being, you know, being unable to move my arms and my legs, I didn’t think that was possible to dance.

But anyways the trauma from that was just very big. Yet, you know, the idea or the concept of mental health and therapy was definitely not in my vocabulary at that time, nor my family’s, and nor my maybe even my culture of like, oh, okay, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re physically recovered from the stroke, but how are you really feeling? Like, you know? The physical recovery doesn’t necessarily equal recovery as a whole.

So I spend about three, four years, like really just living in a lot of fear. A lot of social isolation. I was scared to do things cuz I would be like, well if I, if I try this, what if I get a stroke? And I was honestly very scared to go back to dancing too. Cuz there’s a part of me that was like, well, what if I have a stroke inside of that dance class? And also it’s, it’s like, well, what’s the point of dancing? Because, you know, it seems like nobody likes me as a dancer and nobody wants me as a dancer and I’m just not talented enough and not good enough and all this stuff.

Thankfully at the end of this dark tunnel, I discovered ballroom dancing and salsa dancing. And how this happened was at let’s see, December, 2010. I just happened to be at a business holiday party in Tokyo. And in the middle of this party was a salsa performance. A dance couple came out, performed. And after they performed they got everybody else onto the dance floor. And there was about a hundred Japanese people attending this, mostly in their forties, fifties, and sixties. I was in my twenties at that time, so I was on the younger side.

And let me just say, you know, Japanese people are not very much the type that goes out and busts a move on the dance floor. We’re, we’re quite reserved. However, in this party and in this moment, I have never seen so many Japanese people just light up doing a simple salsa step that’s just six steps forward and backwards. And, you know, I was kind of amongst the crowd, you know, stepping the salsa basic step. And I’m looking around going, wow, everybody is dancing and so am I, so am I. And you know, that was when like I was brought back into my body. Like it was just so much fun to move and that the joy of dance kind of came back into me for the first time since the stroke.

And to be very honest with you, during the three, four years of just living in fear, you know, I started to wonder if I mattered in the world. Like if I went today, would anybody really even care? But during this time of, you know, stepping the salsa basic step and just really reconnecting with my body and moving my body with joy, I realized that I mattered. You know? And what, what I like to say today is that, you know, our body language not only speaks to others, but speaks to ourselves as well. So moving your body with joy, that joy will return to you. So yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And yeah. That’s amazing that, and just so fortuitous that you were exposed to a different type of dancing that I guess was, was different enough from what you had done, but still, you found that joy. Finding your passion and your joy and reconnecting it sounded like really helped you get back on the track of the things that you cared about, and as you said, really reminded you and, and solidified that you, you matter as a, a dancer and, and a person.

At some point on that journey, you also discovered or learned about wheelchair dancing, and that was sort of the very beginning spark of Infinite Flow. And I mentioned this because I, I know when I think of wheelchair dancing, maybe many other people tend to think of it as like, in a rehabilitation center or with like elderly people or like, you know, sort of just more like a rehab function, but not necessarily as a, a performance art. So I would love to know how you sort of learned about wheelchair dancing as a performance art and how that kind of sparked from an interest to sparking this passion to start Infinite Flow.

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah, absolutely. So I became a certified ballroom dance instructor in early 2011.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And so that kind of launched me into, or let’s just say that was like the restart of rebuilding my dance career. And I ended up in Los Angeles in 2012, you know, to give myself a second chance to this dream dance career, dream entertainment career now. Yet I started to hit a lot of walls again. And those walls were very similar to what I had experienced as a teenage ballerina. Hey Marisa, you just don’t have the look of the commercial dancer. You’re Asian American and we don’t wanna see Asian American ballroom and salsa dancers on TV and film. And so I was, I was starting to hit the same exact walls of my body not fitting the, whatever people were looking for.

And again, my gut kept on saying, “well, isn’t, you know, dance a universal language that belongs to everybody?” You know? And so there’s, again, living, I’m just hitting the, you know, living again in this duality of dance being a universal language that belongs to everybody, yet here’s the dance industry or Hollywood saying no, it’s only accessible to a select few. But this time things were a little different. Somehow I started to really believe that it wasn’t my body or my ethnicity that was wrong. You know, the problem was the systemic biases, the discrimination, the stereotypes that exist in our society. And there’s a part of me that was really feeling like, I wanted to do something to change that, and I didn’t know what.

But one day when I was meditating, I remembered taking out that pencil when I was in high school and I said, I asked myself, well, who else is left out? What can I do? How can I serve? And long story short, that led me on this long Google search of learning about disability and the statistics behind, behind, you know, disabled people and learning that, you know, one in four Americans, 61 million Americans have a disability, 15% of the world, the global population, which is about 1 billion people have a disability, yet how often do we hear about disability and dance? And so just knowing that dance wasn’t equally accessible to disabled people, I felt a calling to do something about this. So in a, in a metaphorical way, I took out the pencil again. And, and this time I’m like, okay, this will be for the 1 billion disabled people in the world. And you know, I mean, these statistics, sometimes I hear 1 billion. I I hear 1.7 billion. Either way, it’s a lot of people in the, lots of disabled people in the world, a lot more than we think.

I didn’t know where to start, but I just asked the universe, okay, I feel called to create more access in dance. Shoot me the opportunities that will get me there. And so one thing kind of led to the next, and one of the things I did was, you know, as a ballroom dancer we’re always on the search for a dance partner or dance partners. And this might be for competition, for teaching, for shows, for an audition. Like we’re always on the search for dance partners. And I said, well, why don’t I find myself a wheelchair dance partner? And you know, the idea of being able to dance without the use of your limbs just fascinated me as a stroke survivor. I looked around and I couldn’t find any wheelchair dancers. And so then I went on a search to find a wheelchair athlete or actor. And that was when I came across Adelfo, a paraplegic athlete, paraplegic bodybuilder that lived about 30 miles away from me. And then I stalked them on social media for a few days, and then I saw this YouTube video of him posing for like a bodybuilding competition with a really big smile. And you know, Adelfo’s Filipino-American, he’s got this long black, gorgeous hair and, you know, he’s playing with his hair as he is like doing all these poses. And, and as I saw him just, just pose, I’m like, you know what? I can turn him into a dancer.

So I literally messaged him on Facebook saying, “Hey, my name is Marisa. I’m a stroke survivor. I’m just exploring this, this idea around wheelchair dance, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Would you like to meet with me and try dancing?” And to my surprise, and about an hour later, he said yes. And so not knowing each other at all, we got into the dance studio a couple days later. And honestly, I was terrified to initially dance with him. There’s all these thoughts around, well, I don’t know what I’m doing. What am I getting myself into? Will I hurt him? All these thoughts like were going through my head. But after a couple hours of just kind of experimentally partnering with him and I, again, and also he’d had zero formal dance training either. He didn’t know how to count the music. But after a couple hours there was this magical moment where I realized that dancing with Adelfo was nothing different from dancing with anyone else. And that was when I realized, wow, you know, dance doesn’t discriminate. And when you’re dancing with someone, you see beyond race, color, size, age, gender, sexual orientation or disability. And that night, all I can think of was, wow, if the world danced, there would be no war. I have to share this experience of dance, like of being able to find connection through dance that transcends words, that transcends culture, that transcends any label or identity you can think of. I gotta share this with the world. And that eventually became Infinite Flow in 2015.

And Infinite Flow did start off as a wheelchair ballroom dance company. You know, my process kind of as a business person was, let’s go super, super niche. However, Infinite Flow today, you know, yes it is, we are a professional dance company that employs disabled and non-disabled dancers with diverse intersectional identities. In terms of the disability part, it’s not just wheelchair dancers. We do have, we have dancers with physical disabilities, deaf, blind, neurodiversity, intellectual disabilities, chronic illnesses. Basically we’re sending out a message here that we can all unite through dance.

My vision with Infinite Flow is massive. You know? It’s not just making dance accessible, but it’s like using dance as a catalyst to make systemic change. And it’s, to be very honest with you, my goal with Infinite Flow is that, it is that we don’t have to exist anymore because we have created change in the systems that, you know, the existing system is inclusive and it’s accessible.

However, yeah, building an organization is definitely not easy. Yeah. But I always kind of return back to the concept of that’s, you know, our small actions can lead to big change. And so recently I actually rewrote our mission to, to read: “To create a more inclusive world, one dance at a time.”

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: So the impact of one dance, one interaction, one connection can ripple into the world in ways that we don’t even know. So even though we’re a small organization still, my intention is that, you know, our small actions do lead to big change.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Amazing. And I’ll include some links in the show notes of this podcast to examples of some performances of Infinite Flow, because I know you have some on your website. Because it, it’s hard for me to describe what it’s like. Again, cuz I don’t think it, I don’t think most people are used to seeing disabled and non-disabled dancers performing and, and creating art together. It’s, it’s incredible just watching everyone’s, you know, the athleticism and the coordination and just the incredible moving beauty of all of these performances is just, just something that you have to see to really understand. So I’ll put some links in there and people can take a look after.

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think to add to that, what’s interesting is that, and I’m sure you know this, is that, you know, our perceptions of people are really, really so much based on what we see in the media and on tv, film, and media of all sorts, including books. And, I’ll, I’ll just say that, you know, every single performance live or you know, online that you see, like videos that you see, it’s there to create that impact. When I ask the question, “what are the first three words that come to mind when you think about disability?” Whether it’s kids or adults. Before seeing our performance or before seeing any of our content, usually these words are kind of negative words, like sad, bad, tragic, injury, hospital. Like, I mean, it’s, it’s like that. Yet, after they see a performance or one of our videos, the, the perceptions change, you know. So we’re here to, you know, change those perceptions.

But I think sometimes with disability advocacy or like this, like I’ll say the disability community and disability philanthropic work and nonprofits, the disabled person is sometimes put on the pedestal in a way too. But instead, I like to say no, you know, disability is just a natural part of our humanity. And so within our work too, it’s integrated with disabled and non-disabled people.

And, you know, I know that we’re gonna transition into this topic, so I’m gonna just mention it. 70 to 80% of disabled people have invisible disabilities. And one of the challenges that I’m facing right now is because the wheelchairs stand out in our work, how can we like, highlight and make sure that the dancers with invisible disabilities are also equally highlighted as well? It’s not uncommon for me to receive an email from some casting agency here in LA saying, “Hey, we’re looking for disabled talent.” And when they say disabled talent, they’re not talking about people like me where you can’t see the disability.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: They’re looking for people, people with disabilities that have visible and obvious disabilities. And sometimes I get notices that say, “looking for disabled talent where their disabilities are visible.” And to me, that’s not quite representation either. So even with my dance company as well, I used to have this marketing rule of: no photos go onto anywhere unless there’s a wheelchair in that photo. And recently I’m like, you know, that rule has gotta go out the door. Like that means that I am excluding my own self as an autistic person from this.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And so I definitely want to talk about your, your recent discovery that you are autistic. And just a, a bit of backstory: when we first started talking to set up an interview I think you hadn’t been diagnosed or discovered as autistic yet. I just wanted to learn more about Infinite Flow. And now I’m so interested to learn about your own journey to finding out that you are autistic as well, and if it’s kind of changed the way that you look back on your life and make sense of how everything has played out. So like what happened to lead up to you discovering that you’re autistic?

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah. So first of all yes, it’s very interesting. You and I connected like a couple years ago before the diagnosis, but then you had introduced yourself that you were also late diagnosed with autism. And I had remembered that. It took a couple years for me to like circle back and in that meantime, yeah, diagnosed with autism.

So how I even came to deciding to assess myself was that, you know, throughout the years of leading Infinite Flow, you know, as time went on, I started to learn about invisible disabilities and neurodiversity and mental illness and all, all of that. And I was diagnosed first with PTSD about two years ago, I would say. And I was actually relieved that all this trauma that I’m going through and all the triggers and all, you know, all of this was not something, there wasn’t anything wrong with me. Let’s, let’s just, let’s just start with that.

So, with neurodiversity, you know, I started learning more about neurodiversity and long story short, I felt called to diagnose a close family member. I can’t reveal too much about this family member. But just in a long story short, this family member is someone that needed to be diagnosed when they were young and needed that support, yet didn’t get that support. So I ended up getting this family member assessed, and he was diagnosed with autism. And along that journey I learned more about autism. And I’m, as I’m learning more about, you know, what autism is, I was feeling like I was checking a lot of boxes myself. And I started to wonder if I was autistic myself, on the spectrum.

And so then I decided to get assessed. And I was diagnosed with autism. So I am autistic. I’m on the spectrum. I will say the diagnosis gave me more clarity than confusion.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And looking back on some of the experiences that you’ve had in your life, I mean, even ev as you’ve been talking and telling your story, knowing now that you’re autistic, I think back, like, oh! Like when you were describing that you thought that if you could study to be a doctor for dancers, that that would kind of help you understand how to be a better dancer. I’m like, that kind of sounds very similar to why I studied psychology, so I could understand like all of human behavior and how does this work and how do I get to do this better? So even small things, just, you know, with all that context.

So I mean, looking back, are there experiences that now realizing that you’re autistic, have you had any insights since then?

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah, there’s a lot and I’m still unpacking a lot of this. But let me start with kind of the more obvious ones. Or more, I don’t wanna say obvious, but: noise sensitivity. I tried tap dancing I think when I was seven or eight. And I loved tap dancing. I absolutely loved it. You know, however, I had to quit after like four or five classes because the noise, the pounding, the pounding sounds just gave me a headache and made me dizzy. And I finally just couldn’t, I just couldn’t endure it that I, I, you know, that I quit, you know?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Marisa Hamamoto: Noise sensitivity is something that I’ve had throughout my life and most of the times I just kind of muscled my way through. Yet, you know, I would get cranky. Or I think in, in worst case scenario, someone’s trying to talk to me, yet I can’t quite hear that person’s words and it’s not processing. And so I think there’s been times where someone got mad at me because I didn’t listen to them, for example.

Today, I’ve learned to advocate for myself where I can. So if a restaurant is noisy, I’ll see if we can sit in a different place that’s a little quieter. I’m learning more and more that, especially if I wanna have a deep conversation with someone, that I need to just make sure I do the research and meet in a place where we can have that conversation.

I’ll say a big thing about my diagnosis. The psychologist pointed out something that I did during high school that said, yeah, this is definitely gonna check another box. And, and you know, I’ve had a lot of social anxiety throughout my life. It’s been very difficult for me to open up to others. And you know, there’s always a part of me that thought that there’s something wrong with me. You know?

I think one incident that my psychologist said that really revealed my autism was when I was in high school freshman year, I was going to a public high school, a typical, well public high school in Irvine, California. And I didn’t have many friends. I was very much into dancing and doing the ballet thing after school. So my friends were very, like, I only had a couple friends at school cuz I left school early. I didn’t really hang out, did homework or join the clubs or athletics. I was just there for like five classes and I was out.

So one of my only friends betrayed me on a school group assignment. And that pain was just so, like, so big and so hard on me and I, I just couldn’t take it, you know, to the point that I convinced my parents to let me homeschool. I didn’t know how to process the pain. My parents obviously, well at that time, didn’t know anything about mental health or getting counseling. I was a straight A student, honor student, AP student, always number one and number two in in my class, you know, winning science fairs, all that. So the last thing that my parents thought was that, oh, Marisa needs help and Marisa has a disability.

So anyways, but I convinced my parents. And so for my sophomore year I homeschooled. And I just wanted to get away from people. And I even created this belief in me that I don’t need friends, I don’t want friends, and if I have friends it’s just, they’re just gonna hurt me, you know? So that was when I was 14.

It was actually when I was 24 and had the stroke and in the hospital, that was actually when I realized. During the hospital, no one texted me. No one called me except for one college professor who I was close with at that time. And being at the hospital in that loneliness where, you know, seven weeks passed by without no one knowing that I had even had a stroke and was in the hospital, I realized that no, this is not how I want to live my life, of nobody knowing about me or caring about me. So I would say the stroke was also a turning point to just knowing that I actually wanted connection. I wanted community. And, I would say that was a big kind of, “oh, okay, that was part of my autism.”

I think the autism diagnosis kind of gave me permission to tell myself that there’s nothing wrong with me. That this is just a part of me. And, and, and actually what I, you know, realized through the autism diagnosis that I actually like people! I actually like being social. Am I still an introvert? Yes. But I still like being around people.

So it was like last year in July that I was diagnosed with autism, and as the psychologist is kind of going through her observations, one of the things that she mentioned was about social cues. That I had some tendencies of missing social cues. And that kinda hit me hard, I won’t lie. Because you know, I’m a sexual assault survivor times three, with the first one being a ballet teacher. And these sexual assaults had happened between the ages of 19 and 27. And you know, later on you know, I, I revealed to a close friend, or then close friend, about these sexual assaults for the first time to anyone. And the first thing thing that he said was, “well, you tend to miss social cues. And so probably these sexual assaults were your fault. You were probably just not picking up the cues.”

Carolyn Kiel: Oh my God.

Marisa Hamamoto: And I mean, this is like pre-autism diagnosis. And, and, and I, you know, and this, this was a guy that I was dating at that time, and obviously I’m not dating him anymore. Yeah. However, you know, like I think people have made fun of me for, for missing social cues and maybe they’re laughing behind my back, you know? And, and so, you know, I, you know, kind of got myself into wondering, well, had I been diagnosed with autism earlier in my life, would I have been able to prevent some of these sexual assaults? And was it really, maybe it was my fault. But, you know, once I got, went through that, that, that spiral I had, I definitely had have had some conversations with friends and, you know, life coaches that no, this was not your fault.

Carolyn Kiel: No.

Marisa Hamamoto: And and you know, and so yeah. So now it’s like, I think I do miss social cues at times, but just because I miss social cues doesn’t mean that a sexual assault was my fault. And we’re gonna erase that out of

Carolyn Kiel: mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: Erase that out of my, my thought process. So yeah, so, but that’s something that I think I had to emotionally process. And right now I, I just recognize that it might take some time to continue to process, but that’s okay.

One interesting thing is it’s probably in the last like couple months that I’ve been kind of being a little bit more open about talking about my autism verbally, you know, hence I reached back out to you, you know?

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: And what’s interesting is I think, you know, a lot of, especially my dancers and my dance companies sometimes laugh at me cuz I don’t get jokes. I don’t get jokes, I don’t, and sometimes I don’t understand idioms and I still don’t understand a lot of idioms and kind of taking things literally.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Marisa Hamamoto: And I’m able to laugh at myself now. And, and before I would occasionally get hurt or feel like, like someone’s just picking on me. But now it’s like, I kind of laugh at it.

And recently a friend of mine, a friend of mine that knows that I’m autistic, he texted me saying, “Hey, I don’t think you understood when I said X, Y, and Z. Let me explain that to you.” And, and it was basically, I can’t remember exactly what this phrase was, but it was a hyperbole that he had used. And so I think he, he just read on my face that, oh, Marisa just, marisa’s autistic brain just kind of like launched in that moment. And so I do appreciate when friends are kind of like, Hey, let me just explain that to you. And I think with my closer friends, I am not afraid anymore to be like, Hey, can you just explain what you mean by that? So that’s been kind of nice, I’ll say. Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s good. Yeah, I really think that the people around you, especially as an autistic person really just make a huge difference. Cuz as you said, it’s not that we don’t like people, you know, I think the vast majority of us would like to have good, healthy relationships and friendships and, and all of that. But yeah, it’s really important to have the right people around you and not people who are gonna blame you for things that are clearly not your fault at all, but people who really understand and just, you know, accept you for, for who you are. Absolutely.

Marisa Hamamoto: Yeah. And, and, and it’s a spectrum, you know?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Marisa Hamamoto: You and I don’t come across as the stereotypical autistic people. Like, and I’ve, I’ve already gotten the, “oh, you’re autistic? You don’t look autistic.” I’m like, who said autism is supposed to look a certain way? And it’s a spectrum, therefore, you’re gonna find various types of, you’re gonna find diversity within the spectrum, you know?

But you know, at the same time, I think, and this sounds so, you know, as, as someone that’s been a disability advocate since I created my dance company in 2015, you would think that it was easy for me to just come out and say, Hey, I’m autistic. But it took me months to be able to do that in a way. And I mean, and that kind of reveals how much there is still so much stigma around neurodiversity and being autistic. And you know, yet at the same time, it didn’t make sense for me to hide that part of me as a disability advocate and as a leader. And to be very honest with you, I was actually more afraid of the disability community judging me than anyone else. And the reason why I say that is that for the last whatever years, I’ve been labeled as a non-disabled ally. And occasionally, I won’t lie, I, I’ve been excluded out of some disability justice leadership circles because I’m not disabled. Yet, I’m leading an organization that promotes disability inclusion.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm-hmm.

Marisa Hamamoto: Now it’s like I’m calling myself disabled. And, you know, and I’ve already gotten that, well, did you get the assessment just to, just to prove and just to get yourself an “in” into the disability leadership community? I said, no, I did this because I wanted to learn more about myself and all these effing challenges I’ve had in my life. And as a result of the diagnosis, it’s like, oh, that’s what it, that’s what that was. You know? In the DSM 5, you know, criteria, they talk about restricted interests and, and how a lot of people with autism, once you’re into something, you’re into something! It’s like to the extreme of doing that activity. And I’m definitely that with dance. I’ve been that with, with various topics and various activities. And I think that’s a strength of autistic people, of being able to dive into one topic for a long, long period of time and go very deep into it.

Now, is it only autistic people that go that far and deep? No. No, but it’s definitely a trait. And I think for me, I’m still learning about my autism. I’m, I’m more learning how to talk about my autism. But in order to, in order to kind of break the, the stigma around this, is that we got to start talking about it, and I’ve got to be okay and I decided I’m gonna be okay saying that I’m autistic from now on. And if people start judging me, then that’s their problem, not mine.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, and all the more important to start really highlighting and, and including invisible disabilities like you started doing with Infinite Flow. Cuz there’s so many people who, they’re not believed, they’re not taken seriously because they don’t quote unquote “look disabled” or “look autistic.”

Yeah, Marisa, how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the type of speaking that you do or if they wanna learn more about Infinite Flow?

Marisa Hamamoto: Absolutely. So you can find me on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. I do have a Twitter and TikTok account as well. I’m not so active, but I’m planning to be a little bit more active. But you can find me at Marisa Hamamoto. For Infinite Flow, everything is Infinite Flow Dance. And same thing with the websites: MarisaHamamoto.com, InfiniteFlowDance.org. Definitely subscribe to my newsletters both at MarisaHamamoto.com and InfiniteFlowDance.org.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, great. Yeah, I’ll put those links in the show notes so people can see the website, watch clips of the dances, subscribe to your newsletter and get in touch with you there.

And as we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Marisa Hamamoto: I just wanted to say that, no matter who you are, there is nothing wrong with you. If you’re going through a journey of kind of self-discovery or maybe you’re wondering if you’re autistic, ADHD, neurodivergent, I mean, if you’re kind of going through this, am I this or am I that? Just know that there is nothing wrong with you. You don’t get diagnosed with one of those either, if you don’t fit the box of any of these diagnoses either, there’s nothing wrong with you. No matter who you are, there is a path that is right for you, that is unique for you. So keep, keep kind of searching for that path.

And I think if there’s anything that I have learned along my journey that can sum it up is that, you know, we can turn our limitations into limitless possibilities. When “no” hits the door and challenges hit the door, those are sources to create and innovate. And no matter what the situation is you know, finding a way is part of the way and there’s a lot of beautiful things that can come from that.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for being on my podcast. I really enjoyed talking with you and I’m so glad that we got to connect and thank you for sharing your story on my show. I really appreciate it.

Marisa Hamamoto: No, thank you Carolyn. I, I, I really appreciate it. And just, you know, amazing podcast and congratulations on your recent award, you know, too.

Carolyn Kiel: Thank you so much.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.