Episode 217: Working in the creative industry with Tourette’s – with Ian Otto

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn Kiel: On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Ian Otto, a senior producer with experience in animation, motion design, immersive, visual effects or VFX, and post production. For many years, Ian worked in Berlin as a producer studios like WOODBLOCK, Zeitguised, and Tamschick Media + Space for clients like Gore-Tex, Samsung, Nike, Swatch, Mercedes-Benz, and Heineken Experience, as well as on smaller artistic projects.

He’s since moved to Copenhagen, Denmark, and since 2019 has been senior producer with WOODBLOCK for clients from all over the world. Ian, welcome to the podcast.

Ian Otto: Thank you, Carolyn. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Carolyn Kiel: Yes. I’m excited to talk with you too. And the main topic that we’re going to talk about today is that you recently have been speaking a lot about your experience having Tourette syndrome and how it interacts with um, your work and, and the rest of your life. So I’d love to learn more about your, your story with growing up with Tourette’s syndrome.

So I guess, first of all, how did you discover that you have Tourette syndrome?

Ian Otto: I think it was, um, maybe my parents or my, yeah, who discovered it because I was quite young. I had, I was around four years old, uh, walking to the kindergarten, and always looking under my shoes. Like, I’m always lifting my shoe and to look under the sole to see if there’s something. And it was the first time that my parents were like, Oh, that’s a bit unusual to do that. It’s like a tic that he has.

And then, and knowing for my own daughter and from other kids, um, tics are not unusual to have as, as kids. But, uh, that was, uh, the first one which we really, um, saw as something out of the normal, if you want.

So, and, uh, and then, um, actually I had my diagnose not before I was nine years old. Um, at that point, uh, it was like in the mid nineties, there was not so much awareness as there is nowadays. So it took longer to figure out for the doctors or psychiatrists and so on. And now, uh, what it is that I’m, uh, I’m having. So, uh, so I think even though I had the first tic since yeah four or five years of age, it took a couple of years until there was an official diagnosis for Tourette syndrome and also OCD. Um, so it often comes in a package, uh, with the Tourette’s. Uh, so some people have it with ADHD combined. Um, I have it in this case combined with OCD.

And, um, so yeah, there was a, there was the first times that we were like, and I remember also being, being a young boy, being in school and having to, to shout specific things, and uh, like specific words or specific, uh, vocal tics, which I know now, well, why why I had to say these things. But back in the days I, I remember I was not confused, but I was like, oh yeah, that’s interesting that I have to say these things. Or like “insult” people in a way that, or like not insult in a bad way, but like call them names or something. And now I know, um, of course why that is., why I did that.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was quite early on. So now I’m, uh, I was born 1988. So at four years, I had my first tics, which is now 31 years ago. And, uh, it has been a while that I was, uh, that I’m living with, with the Tourette syndrome. And yeah, so that’s how it all started. And then obviously the teenage years, I guess, I guess we get to that later, but teenage years were a little bit more difficult, uh, hormones and everything mixed up with a disorder, uh, was not the most fun experience, if you want so, yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering because you were saying that really the understanding in the 1990s of Tourette syndrome was nothing like it is today. It’s, it’s much better today. So in school when you were shouting out, were people like teachers or students kind of understanding what was going on or they still weren’t, didn’t quite understand?

Ian Otto: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it was still quite subtle at that point, and in a way that it wasn’t too obvious, it became much more um heavy, the tics, when I became a preteen and teen. Um, that was also the times where it was very obvious, I mean, it is still, I mean, very obvious. Often Tourette’s, the tics from the Tourette Syndrome get a bit less when you get older. For me, it was not the case. They stayed the same or even got a bit worse. Um, but we can get back to this later, why so and how this got related to work and everything. But, um, I think that it was in school, the teachers coped with it very well, most of them, so I’m, I’m very, I was very happy about the teachers I had and especially the friends, friends and a friend group I had and still have.

And then they supported me, supported me very well all the way. And, uh, that helped me, of course, to get through school because I missed a lot of classes. I was also in inpatient treatment for like three, three and a half months. Um, because, uh, at that point in Germany, the center of Tourette, like a doctor’s association or however you call it, the main doctor, he was, he was, um, uh, five hours away from where I grew up. And it was the time where we decided to go, or my parents and I decided that it was time to start medication. I was 12 years old, maybe, uh, trying out the typical medications you get when you are a kid or a teen with Tourette, like Tiapridex and all these kind of medications. And, um, that was only possible in uh in inpatient treatment, which was part of the, um, of the, uh, kids and youth psychiatry. So, which means I was together with a lot of other teenagers and kids with all kinds of disorders or problems or, um, issues. So it was for me, um, very teachable months or interesting months because I, I learned a lot about also other people’s issues and it was also quite hard on me, but I think it was just part of the journey in some way, right?

So, um, so, um, I had to start with medication around 12 years old. I started, I think, with uh first Tiapridex and all the other, uh, usual suspects in terms of Tourette medication, which all, by the way, didn’t work out for me. They were all only showing the side effects on me. So anxiety, um, kind of depressions, um, yeah, all these kinds of things, I gained weight and stuff like that.

So, um, yeah, it was a wild ride, but thanks to friends and family again, um, it was for me positive to finish, to finish school. And, and, uh, In Germany it’s called, yeah, yeah, Gymnasium. That’s like a high school in Germany. Um, yeah, yeah, finish that and be, um, I would say, ready to, to continue with, um, with my life and work, studying, work, et cetera. So.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, that’s quite a journey and, and, and yeah, we can talk more about this later, of course, but there is, you know, Tourette’s, there is medication for it. But as you said, that medication doesn’t work for everyone. There are side effects that are pretty significant for a good amount of people. And um, so yeah, it really depends on the person in terms of what those solutions could be.

Ian Otto: Definitely. As for the yeah, as with every medication, every patient, it’s so different that you, I, in my experience can rarely say this works for everyone or for the majority. I mean, especially when it comes to very specific disorders or, um, illnesses then it’s even more difficult in my, my experience to find the right medication right away.

Um, and I’m still searching for that. I mean, I I’m on medication, but it’s not a final solution. And I don’t know if there will be ever one, but, uh, how it is.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. So then, you know, you mentioned, you know, going through school and then, and starting work. So what made you decide to start working in, in the industry now? And I know you’re in the creative industry. So if you can kind of share like what, what that is exactly in case people aren’t familiar and, and how you got into it.

Ian Otto: So basically I always wanted to work with film or music. I was, as a teenager, I don’t know, already I was, um, early on, um, skateboarding and filming my friends with a camera and editing and doing compositing, which is like, uh, yeah, doing all kinds of creative work. Uh, and, uh, I decided then to go to a film school where I studied after after this gymnasium, which is like this German high school, and started to study in a field called digital film and animation, which I did for two years. And then going as an intern to a production company in Stuttgart, south of Germany, where I’m coming from, from the surroundings.

So I started actually making my hobby or my, my passion for film and pop culture into kind of my profession. Um, although that my main focus is in work, working as a producer basically for clients is, is basically advertising my fields that I work with. So it is not necessarily, it wasn’t my passion to work in advertising, but, um, to have the medium film and be surround by creative people, artists, and, and, uh, and so on. That was always something I was, um, was looking for. And I think I found a, for me personally, a perfect field to work in because of course I work with a lot of clients from different backgrounds that can be, can be, can be, it can be farmer, it can be automotive, it can be a technical, uh, like scientific projects. It can be, um, basic campaigns for sneakers, uh, or, uh, for, for fashion industry. And yeah, and there’s a lot of people that are on the other side of the line, especially now where everything is from on remote. And I’m anyway, not sitting in our headquarter in Berlin, but on remote as like a single producer outstay outpost in Copenhagen or out of Copenhagen.

But, um, I think that, um, what, what I always wanted is to work with creative people. And, um, and what I’m doing is, is, um, I’m, I’m working with our artists on a project. I’m, I’m making the budget and the schedule for the client. I do the, I do the client communication. So I’m the bottleneck, bottleneck between the, the client or the agency, depends how the setup is, and us the con uh, the production company, the animation studio. And, um, basically at the end, it means that, um, yeah, I’m in between those two parties trying to, of course, please and comfort the client and make everything possible, what they need and want, make them feel understood and also guided by the hand and show them the process, what we are doing, how we are doing things, but also making sure that our team is treated well in a way that nobody’s burning out. Uh, because that is a big problem in the creative industry that, uh, artists are often very much overworked due due to, uh, to work pressure and, and, and all these other things. Um, and also just, uh, making, making everyone feel comfortable in, in, in, in their position and just getting a good result at the end of a project, which can be, and again, can be simply a campaign, TVC or a TV commercial, or it can be a, a short film, it can be whatever. But the main goal is that everyone can thrive in it for me, in my team, and, uh, have a, have a, have a good time and not feel like, um. It’s, it’s too much of a hassle. It should be still fun in some way. Of course, it’s not always, but it should be still a pleasant work environment.

Working with in this case, uh, WOODBLOCK, which is the company I work for the last four or five years is, uh, for me, uh, a really nice setup because I know the people, the artists very well from the years I lived in Berlin, and that helps me being on remote as well, since, um, I know them and if I wouldn’t know them that well, it would be a bit harder to be so far away for, for everyday business.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So in your role, you’re really working with a wide variety of people and you know, you’re working with very creative people. A lot of times you’re working with people from corporate who are just sort of more traditional company people on the client side. Um, you’ve got your own coworkers and your managers. So really you, you have to work with a lot of different people.

As someone with Tourette’s, what’s that been like working with, say, working with clients? Especially if, if you’re introducing yourself to them for the first time, what’s that been like for you?

Ian Otto: In the beginning I was I was more worried back in the day. I mean, I started working 2010 in the industry, which is uh, uh, also now like 13, 14 years since I work in industry. In the beginning was of course a bit more y, yeah, yeah. I was a bit more worried and also just being an intern or just being a junior. It was, you were thinking more about, uh, how do I present myself, et cetera. But what I learned is that if you’re self confident and if you’re upfront about it, uh, and honest and transparent, it really helps.

So often when I have a call with new agency colleagues or clients, I mention it in the very beginning in a, in an easygoing way, like in a call, because now everything is online, even though if I would sit in Berlin, most of the meetings we have with agencies of companies, clients are online, no matter whether if they’re in Berlin or if they’re in, in the States. So, but, um, I try to always, um, come, uh, come up with a good segue to, to explain why I’m having tics.

So it is, it can be like a funny, funny thing, which I do basically. I have a call with somebody the first time and then, and then we talk for 30 minutes. And I noticed, of course, that they noticed something. And then towards the end of the call, I’m like, if the timing is right, I’m like, “And by the way, just so you know, I’m not on drugs, I have Tourette syndrome, I have tics.” And then it’s a good icebreaker in some way. You know, it’s like, I noticed, I experienced it most of the time, this works as a good icebreaker.

Of course you have to get a feeling, before. One thing that really helped me having Tourette is getting a sense for people, a feeling for how people are that I talk to. So I think having Tourette, you experience things towards other people or from other people towards you that people without a disorder like Tourette won’t experience. So you get a kind of like a skill set of, um, of understanding a little bit more, um, not understanding, but, um, getting a feeling for, yeah, in between the, I don’t know how to say it in English, but do you know what I want to say?

Carolyn Kiel: I think maybe it’s almost like you get a feeling for how people might

Ian Otto: Yeah,

Carolyn Kiel: react to things or how they think.

Ian Otto: Exactly. A little bit like that. Yeah. So

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Ian Otto: Yeah, you can, you can judge people a little better than I think um if I wouldn’t, I can judge people better than I think I would, would, in case I would, if I wouldn’t have Tourette, I wouldn’t be as good as judging people, that’s what I want to say. I think, personally, just my, and it helps, of course, to be kind of extroverted, to be upfront about it. Not everyone with Tourette, especially is, I’m aware of that, is that extroverted as I am. I’m happy that I am, but I know also patients and people that are more and more introverted and that of course makes it harder and harder to be outgoing and be like, “Hey, how are you doing? And by the way, I’m not on drugs, I have Tourette’s.” So, um, Not everyone feels comfortable being like that.

But for me, it was just all these years that I realized that I don’t want to live with Tourette’s, Tourette’s has to live with me, kind of thing. You know? It’s like, I want to be just as much as I can be myself as possible, no matter if I have tics or not. And that makes me actually even special in this, in some way. So it might, might make me a, yeah, like a beneficial addition to a team because I’m different. And that’s not necessarily, oh that is never a bad thing. That’s how I try to see it.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. Yeah. And it seems like your understanding of people like that also serves you in the type of work that you do. Because you work with so many different people, I think it really benefits you in your work to kind of understand where people are coming from, you know, what they might be thinking, what they might expect and how they might react. So yeah, it all comes together. And plus, having a sense of humor as well, as, as you clearly do to help break the ice and, um, you know.

Ian Otto: I think it’s a general good, um, skill to have, being self critic and especially also self ironic. I think it’s always nice as a, as a, um, how do you call it? To have as a, as a human, this kind of, um, feature if you want, so.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. It can be if you, you know, if you can, you know, not take yourself too seriously. A lot of times it’s a way, it’s a way to put people at ease.

Ian Otto: People are like, can I ask you about your tics? Is it okay? And I’m like, of course, please go ahead. Of course I wouldn’t know either, if somebody would like me to ask them about their disorder or disability, but I think it’s nice if people ask. It shows interest and it’s good to spread knowledge and tell people, this is how it is for some people like me. And, and, um, there’s nothing bad about it. Of course, it’s not always fun, but it’s, you know, It’s just there. You have to live with it. So make the best out of it, at least. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: And I’m curious how, how did you build your confidence at work about having Tourette’s? Because you know, you’ve been working for a while, so clearly you’ve kind of come to, you know, you’ve, you’ve learned some ways about how, how you feel and how you connect with people. But did you ever feel pressure to like hide your tics? Or did you ever feel less confident going in maybe when you started out?

Ian Otto: I mean, to be honest, of course, when I have a new client call, it is always a bit more stressful to start it and break the ice. It’s not, uh, it’s, it’s not that it’s super, super easy for me, even if it sounded like that just now. But it is still, of course, a stress situation. And stress makes, of course, tics going worse.

So that’s going back to earlier when I said, uh, advertising is not my passion. Because I said in the beginning I want to do something with film and then I ended up doing advertising, which is, which is, which I like to do, but advertising is stress, stressful work. I mean, short deadlines, a lot of pressure. So maybe not the best choice, uh, if you have tics to find a stressful job. But on the other side, what isn’t a stressful job nowadays anyway? I mean, everything is so high pace and with social media. And I think especially for now for younger people for younger generation going into the job market now, it is definitely more stressful than it used to be for me. I think at least in our, when it comes, becomes also becoming an artist, coming from a school, from a film school, animating school, there’s a lot of pressure on you now with social media. Everyone wants you to perform perfectly fine or super well, but you shouldn’t burn out either. So where’s the balance? So I can see it is really hard now, especially.

But, I think it is important that you try to not lose the focus of, um, taking care of yourself. Um, and it is normal to be nervous. It’s no, no, no normal to be near, sometimes stressed or, um, even if you don’t have tics or don’t have disorder, that’s very, very human thing to have. Right? And maybe it’s not even that sometimes just to ground you.

I mean, the question was how it is with pressure, right. And if I feel sometimes still a little bit pressure, I think the good creative industry is, um, I hope I’m not jumping too much, but, um, that, um, most of the people are very open minded at our work. Pretty much everyone that I met the last years was open minded and interested. I rarely had a problem where somebody was like, Ooh! Well I never had a problem with somebody said, “I don’t want to work with you.” I never had this, not even from a client or from corporate clients. Because even though if corporate, uh, clients come to us, which is mostly, yeah, mostly the, the, the, the, the marketing department or it’s, um, they come to the creative people to create a campaign or a vision for them because they, they want to get something different, right? They, they, they, they need the expertise of somebody who is creative and maybe a bit different than them.

So. I never had thankfully a bad, bad experience where it was like, “Oh, I don’t, I don’t want to work with you because of Tourette’s.” Which again, doesn’t mean that it’s not always stressful to face new faces or new clients. Uh, but in general, in general, I can really recommend to people who are thinking about what to do, having Tourette’s, having tics, and considering going into creative fields, no matter if it’s graphic design, if it’s animation, if it’s visual effects or motion design, or no, or just being on set, a camera operator or whatsoever. Um, I think that’s a good place to be for, for people with, uh, with special, with special, um, yeah, needs or whatever. Because it is not most important, I think it is, I haven’t worked in a corporate business like, uh, ever, but I can imagine that it is harder to sit in a big office room with like 30 boxes and, uh, trying to be not obvious. Working in a call center, I don’t know, but that would, for me personally, not work with my tics. I, I pretty, I’m pretty sure about that.

Carolyn Kiel: hmm.

Ian Otto: Um, but if that wouldn’t be the Tourette and there would be other reasons why something wouldn’t work. So I think it really is a very individual decision, but I really like working in the creative industry because people actually admire if you’re also “different” if you want, so.

Carolyn Kiel: Very cool. That’s cool. And then, so you’ve talked about how you interacted with your clients and built those relationships. In terms of going to job interviews and getting hired by, I guess the production companies that you work with, was that a challenge having Tourette syndrome? Or do you, do you approach that in a similar way as you do with your clients, like being upfront, having a sense of humor? Like what, how has that been?

Ian Otto: So my very first job I got in the industry where I was an intern, that was actually funny because, but in a good way. Because I know I yeah, I applied. I had a job interview. It went well, but I got a no. And then I asked the guy that I still know nowadays and then I’m like, I don’t know, I would like to know more. And he, um, just said he wasn’t super sure if it was a good fit, but they gave me a second chance. And then I got the job. And then I wrote, uh, last year, this medium article 14 years, 13 years later. And he told me or wrote that he was a bit concerned about me having tics in front with like corporate clients, but then he was like, let’s just do it. Let’s just do it. Let’s give him a chance. He’s motivated. He’s skilled. Let’s do it.

And that was, I didn’t know that at that point, but that was a really nice decision for him to make. Which is normal to have these thoughts, right? I would have the same thoughts. If I wouldn’t know, and then I would think, Oh, um, what if he says a swearing tic while he has a client meeting with the CEO of, you know? You don’t, you never know. It can go both ways, but, uh, thankfully it was a good decision of his, of him to, uh, to still hire me. And it showed that it worked out. And after that, I mean, I never had problems. I always talked about it quite openly, and mentioned it. Uh, I can’t hide it anyway, right? No, no, no, no. In the first six seconds you notice that I have tics.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s always interesting. I, I know in the United States there, you know, we have employment laws that are meant to prohibit discrimination for people with disabilities. And, but at the same time, the law is there, but in practice, it’s so hard a lot of times for people because you never really know why, you know, why you’re getting the feedback.

And just like you said, you, you found out much later, what really happened with that first interview and that that person wound up giving you a chance. And, um, and I know you wrote about that as well. Yeah.

Ian Otto: yeah. It’s interesting, right? I mean, um, I also can see it in some way that it might be sometimes more challenging to have people like me on board, like from a team leader perspective. But on the other side, everyone has something. And some people you can see, some people you can’t see what they have. And nobody is perfect anyway, and nothing is normal or abnormal, everyone is special, and everyone has their special needs, everyone has their special skills. And at the end, that’s what I like about the creative industry, to go back to that again, um, it’s more important what you can do than what you are. I mean, there’s, yeah, some people are big nerds and not really extroverted. Some people are, are having Tourette and being super all over the place and loud and, but yeah, it’s a team thing. So yeah, we’re all on the boat, on the same boat.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Now that’s great when you’re, when you’re actually judged for the type of work that you do and not for, you know, who you are as a person. That’s, that’s really important. Yeah.

And, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, medication around things that you were trying to help out with your Tourette’s. But I guess in your everyday life, besides medication, what helps you with your tics or your Tourette’s, however you define help?

Ian Otto: I mean, if I could play, if I could play guitar the whole day, I wouldn’t have any tics, but I can’t walk around with a guitar around my neck. That’s a bit difficult. Um, so no, that’s a typical thing, right? That you also have with other patients. And now when I do music, um, it kind of disappears. And when I come back uh, to normal life and I stop playing the guitar, it’s, back like that, the tics. Um, and yes, I play way too little guitar the last years. I should know, I it more often like I used to do because it is the best medication for, for making it at least go away for a bit.

Um, other than that, I’m taking, uh, Uh, medication since many years, which is, uh, one of the standard ones for, I think, adult Tourette pains is like, uh, Aripiprazole. Uh, it used to be, used to be called, yeah, Abilify, um, which, uh, is now not called that anymore. It was just a product name. Um, I mean, it still exists, but there’s a lot of other companies who produce the same now. So thankfully it’s not as expensive anymore, even though it is mostly covered in Germany or in Denmark, but after 10 years, the patent run out so everyone could produce it. So it’s that one.

And then, and then I have sertraline as like, uh, It’s like, uh, um, uh, medication for the OCD, which helps quite, quite well. So these two I’m taking as, uh, as like a conservative medication. And then, then, then I was actually one of the first patients in Germany back in the days, then that got a cannabis medication prescribed. So that was, um, so I, I do not be know what it’s called. It’s like a oil or alcohol mixed with cannabis. Um, take under the tongue and then it takes 45 minutes and then you can dosage it more or less. And I’m still taking that regularly, but um not doing work hours, only in evenings or on weekends because it is just making you too, too relaxed in a way that you are productive still. But that’s actually the thing that helps the most in terms of relief, relief, stress relief. The tics, motoric tics might not go better, get better, or vocal tics might not disappear or get much better, but at least I’m not so stressed.

And the one thing about Tourette’s that I have is the inner tension. The one that’s making you very tense and very stressed inside. Like when you feel uncomfortable. When you’re out, for example, in a, in a, in a public transportation, in a bus, and there’s a lot of people, it’s very warm. Yeah, you’re sweaty and then your tics and you feel like you’re exploding. So this, this I can really well control with like the cannabis medication because that makes me just more relaxed.

Um, so these three things are, when it comes to medication, what I’m, what I’m regularly taking. Other than that, um, the best thing I could have done, or the best thing I did the last years for me personally was like going to therapy. Seeing a shrink, if you want, if that’s, if that’s a term to use? Um, just to be self reflective more and working through some things from the past that I haven’t really probably worked through. For example, the inpatient treatment was quite heavy on me some months as a teenager and I never really thought much about it deeper. And I always said, yeah, I always said until some years ago, “no, no, no, I’m okay. I’m great. I live with Tourettes. It’s no problem at all. I’m above it.” But then I became a dad and that was six years ago, and I notice that I’m often very stressed and that I, that I’m, especially when I’m out and people are reacting strange to me, da, that I, that I had quite often a short fuse. And I was always what my therapist called “battle ready.” You, you are always ready to argue against something. And, and just working through that, talking about these times, and that it’s also okay not to be okay. That it’s okay to be vulnerable and not always on top of things. Just to realize that made me so much more calm in my everyday life. That was really the best thing I did the last year. So I can really recommend everyone, no matter if you have disorder, if you have tics or if you have whatever or nothing, which doesn’t exist, but just to talk about your issues with somebody who is maybe not friends or family, but with somebody professionally, because, um, that was really an eye opener for me, to be honest.

Carolyn Kiel: Definitely. I think when a lot of people think about Tourette syndrome, they think of, oh, tics. But as you were saying, it’s so much more than that. It’s the stress. It’s the physical tension, because a lot of times that’s part of it as well. It’s sometimes, you know, anger and, and, you know, trauma in some ways. It’s all of that.

In general, what advice would you have for people who have Tourette’s or a condition like Tourette’s that’s very visible, who like want to, you know, get into the workforce or are maybe struggling with kind of finding their place?

Ian Otto: I think just, I mean, I’m not phrasing Nike now, but just do it! Because, if you have the possibility, if you have the possibility to try out things because you are able to take maybe a no or take maybe some disappointments, because there will be always disappointments. There will always be moments where like, um, have to, um, To accept it’s not just necessarily with work, but in general, that people don’t accept you how you are, or people are stupid about your tics, or are not understanding, or don’t want to understand. But, um, but I think you have to take this as a challenge and then in an end and, um, try to make the best out of it. And, uh, just gain from that experience, um, self-confidence and learn from that,, learn from the that that experience. I think it’s important to see everything as part of the journey in a way that you can learn from things and get better or get stronger from it. I mean, that sounds a bit weird, but I mean more in the, in, in the sense of, um, if I wouldn’t have had all these experience, I think I wouldn’t be where I am now, personally. Which doesn’t mean that I’ll, if a genie would come out a bottle and say, “you want to have Tourette or not Tourette?” Or I can make a wish and then say, uh, I don’t want to have Tourette, I would of course say immediately, I don’t want to have tics anymore. It’s not that I’m, oh, it’s so much part of me. I don’t want to miss it. But what I, what I think is that it is still an important part of my journey that I had it, like I had, because it made me who I am.

And in terms of work, I think, just give it a try. I mean, what can you lose? You can lose maybe the good mood for a day when you get a no from a company or something. But if you don’t try, you will never know. And then you will maybe regret it in, in a year where you’re like, I should have applied for this job. There’s just so much time we have to do things, so let’s try to do, what we love and like, and try to do it, um, as good as we can.

And yeah. , I had a talk at a conference one and a half months ago, where I said that if, and I think that’s really the truth, if people don’t want to work with you, then you shouldn’t work with them anyway, because there would be also another reason why they wouldn’t like to work with you. If it’s not because of your tics, it’s maybe because of your, of your clothes. It’s maybe because of your tattoos. It’s maybe because of your accent or of your skin color or of your, you know? So if somebody doesn’t want to work with you because you have a disorder like Tourette’s or another disorder, uh, yeah, then it’s not worth it. Then don’t do it. Don’t force it and especially don’t feel like it is a missed opportunity because it’s not worth it. Yeah, That’s how I see it. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Thank you. That’s, that’s a good approach to take and a good attitude to have about, you know, how you show up and with things. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Ian, is, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or, or anything that they can kind of help or support you with as you share your story?

Ian Otto: it’s a good question. I think as long people stay uh, people stay uh, you know, people stay open minded and, um, curious. I think, I think that’s again, that’s, that’s the most important. And stay friendly and nice. I think, you know, be nice is a value that everyone should have. Um, of course there are always moments, moments where you don’t know what’s going on with somebody and you’re looking weird. I do it sometimes as well, catch myself and I’m like, oh, this person walks funny or something. And then I’m like, because it’s a human thing to do. But at the end, man, you’re nice about it. If you’re nice and if you’re nice about people’s differences.

Just on one anecdote. I met a guy recently and he was laughing a lot. And I did, I met him at a bar. But I didn’t take it in a bad way, and he was not laughing about me, he was just very drunk and had like a, had like, uh, a really hard time not to laugh about my tics. But we ended up having like an hour in the evening and he was actually really friendly and really sweet. And he didn’t mean it in a bad way. He also stopped laughing at some point. But I didn’t take it in a bad way either. I just said, it’s okay. It’s fine. Uh, I know you’re not laughing about me or like of me, but, uh, you are, you’re just at a different space right now. So, um, so yeah, I mean just try to be nice and be nice to your people around yourself and that you surround yourself with as well. I think that’s all I can can give.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. That’s an important point is that, as you said, it is, it is human sometimes to have your very first reaction be like a judgment on someone. But at the same time, you know, it’s on us to kind of interrupt those thoughts and be like, no, you know, let me understand. There might be something else happening here that is not what I’m immediately seeing.

And that just opens up, as you said, conversations and relationships and just being nicer and kinder to people in general. Yeah definitely.

Ian Otto: Totally agree.

Carolyn Kiel: So Ian, it’s been great talking with you. Is there any way that people can get in touch with you if they either want to learn more about, you know, your work or your story, your own personal experience about

Ian Otto: Of course. I mean, people can write me an email. That’s very, uh, very, very cool, if somebody wants to reach out. I don’t know. I don’t know, don’t know Carolyn if you are, if you are linking my email and the article somewhere?

Carolyn Kiel: I can. I know you mentioned the Medium article that you wrote. And that’s actually how I found out about your story. So I’ll definitely put a link to that in there as well. And your email too.

Ian Otto: Or find me on Instagram or something, I think it’s always uh nice if people reach out and ask. I think it’s so, it shows so much interest in a person if people are generally, if people are really interested in, in you and asking what, what is, what is it to live like with, with a disorder like that?

So, yeah, I would love to tell more about it.

Carolyn Kiel: Awesome. That’s great. Yeah. Well, Ian, thank you so much for sharing your story on my podcast and yeah, I, I wish you all the best. I know you’re starting to share your experience with Tourette’s like more and more in, in, in talks and presentations. So yeah. Best of luck with that. And thanks for being part of my show today.

Ian Otto: Thank you so much for finding me and for finding me and yeah, have a great day Carolyn.

Carolyn Kiel: Thank you, you too.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at Beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.