Episode 143: Dyslexia in Adults – with Natalie Brooks

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The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Hey! Thanks so much for joining me for a brand new year of Beyond 6 Seconds. If you caught the short solo episode I released right before this one, you’ll know that I’ve been through a bit of a personal journey in 2021, culminating in the fact that in October, I was diagnosed as autistic.

And while I’m still processing what that means for me personally, it has given me a slightly new creative direction. Primarily, you’ll be hearing more personal stories from autistic and other neurodivergent people on this podcast. A lot of that comes from an interest in learning more about myself, learning about others who are like me (and others who maybe aren’t like me, but are still neurodivergent) and finding more people to talk with and understand their experiences more. I also want to share more of my own thoughts and experiences on my podcast.

So I hope you’ll listen along on this journey! If you haven’t already, I would appreciate it so much if you subscribe to my podcast in your favorite podcast app. You can find all the links to do that on my website, beyond6seconds.net . On the website you can also sign up for my free newsletter, so you get an email every time there’s a new episode. And if you are already subscribed, thank you so much – your support means a lot to me.

In a few minutes you’re going to hear my conversation with Natalie Brooks, who started an online community for dyslexic adults. She has built such an amazingly supportive community. One thing that I took away from my conversation with Natalie is how she talks a lot about feeling like she was the only one struggling with her disabilities with her dyslexia. She felt very alone, and after many years of feeling this way, she founded her community and discovered just how many people around the world struggled with a lot of the same issues she struggled with.

I think a lot of us feel alone. Especially for neurodivergent folks – whether we’re undiagnosed and feel different from everyone else, or we have a diagnosis and know why we’re different, but – well, we still feel different and it’s not always a great feeling. I’m fortunate to have a lot of great support, but sometimes I feel like I’m walking this path alone. Fortunately I’m finding a great community of autistic people online (and hopefully someday I’ll meet more in person)… and whatever you may be struggling with, I hope that you can find the community and support you may need. Because you are not alone. And this conversation is such a great reminder of that. Here’s my interview with Natalie.

Carolyn Kiel: Today I’m really excited to be speaking with my guest, Natalie Brooks. Natalie is the founder of Dyslexia in Adults, a company that works to create a safe and creative space to discuss both the challenges and strengths of being an adult with dyslexia.

After struggling in the workplace herself, Natalie created this community to offer support and empower individuals to better understand themselves. Prior to this, she worked in account management roles at a number of companies, including Trainline and Amazon. Natalie, welcome to the podcast.

Natalie Brooks: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited.

Carolyn Kiel: I’m so excited to talk to you and learn more about your company and your own journey. So how did you get the inspiration to start Dyslexia in Adults?

Natalie Brooks: Well, I mean, you very neatly summarized it, to be honest. I am my own target audience. I was really frustrated in the workplace and felt really alone and that I had nowhere to turn, and every time I tried to Google “dyslexia” all I would find is just tons of information for kids.

And I just thought to myself, but my brain doesn’t change. Why is there no support? I just don’t understand. And eventually I just got to the stage where I thought, no one else is going to do this. I’m just going to have to do it myself. And that’s the, that’s the story.

Carolyn Kiel: So, you know, you mentioned having challenges in the workplace throughout your career, but I understand in school, I think you, I read on your website, you went to a school that specialized in dyslexic students. How is that different from, you know, being in school versus making that transition into the workplace after you graduated?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things I talk a lot about in the community is the thing with dyslexia is you can have assisted technology and you can have the right structures put in place, but I find really is what a lot of dyslexic people are looking for is just kindness and a little bit of understanding and a little bit of flexibility and a little bit of support when we ask for it.

And that’s what I really had in this school. So they understood that our brains were a little different and that we worked a little bit differently and we were just given that extra bit of kindness, that extra bit of support and you know, where it was needed and required with particular lessons, more support and kind of information where we needed it. But really what that school taught me is the importance of the right environment.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Everybody works differently. So I would imagine that there’s some you know, just different ways of working and learning and, and achieving things in school as well.

Natalie Brooks: Exactly. Yeah. I mean the one thing I often say to people, when we talk about the fact that dyslexic people are asking for that something a little bit different, or maybe that’s something a little bit extra, is a lot of the research that is done actually says that the environment that’s right for a dyslexic person is actually the best environment for everyone.

So when you say as a dyslexic person, oh, is it possible for us to do it this way? Or could it be done that way? Or could we have a look at this structure? That the important thing to say is firstly, a lot of people are neurodiverse and specifically dyslexic. So it’s not just you that’s asking for that. But also it’s important to point out that not that many people like reading long complex documents, not many people like being talked at for 20 minutes without the opportunity to break that information down. Not many people don’t like having interactive learning. So really we aren’t asking for anything that other people don’t want as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Absolutely. Whenever I do design work, either for my podcast or for other work, I find that a lot of the basics of design are around, you know, just communicating very clearly. And that is something that benefits everyone, you know, as you said, nobody wants to read a long complex document or just listen to an hour lecture. I think a lot of the basis of even the accessibility conversation and principles in general are just making it easier for everyone.

Natalie Brooks: Exactly. Even, you know, in today’s 21st century society, everyone has a short attention span. It’s just that we have a reason for ours. So, you know, there’s nothing unreasonable about those adjustments we’re asking for.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. So it sounded like that your school was really good at making those adjustments and giving that clear communication or just that extra kindness and patience as well. When you transitioned into the workplace, how was that different for you?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. It was a big culture shock, to be honest. I often really look back on those first couple of years after university and just, I just feel really sad that I made the choices that I did, and I was in the place that I was in terms of how I was feeling about myself.

So I was doing well at school and I think everyone would be fairly confident that my grades were decent. And then I went on to university, got a very decent degree, studied politics, and I was a bit of a tragic nerd to be honest. And then I had the opportunity to go, left university and I thought, right, I need to figure out my career path.

And because I just had this nagging self doubt and this self-confidence that I would never be good enough. I would always be a problem and that I would always need support. And I wouldn’t know how to figure things out without help. And I was worried about that. I just refused to take any kind of complex job.

I just went for the most simple, the easiest job that I thought I could possibly do. I just went in right at the ground floor because just didn’t really believe that I was capable or that any workplace would be good for me. So I thought that I had to start at the bottom. To essentially, I don’t know how to best describe this, but if I was doing really badly, then it didn’t matter because I was in a low paid, like low skill jobs. So it’s not a problem that I’m doing badly. Which is just on reflection, such as silly, sad thing to do.

And then I wasn’t very good at that first job because it was data entry and not a quintessentially successful dyslexic job. And so it then further eroded my confidence. And as a result, I then took a while to really build up my career to the path that I actually should have followed, which was account management and working with people and having my own business and all of those types of things.

I think if I’d have had more confidence in myself, I would have been successful a lot sooner. It took me about 10 years to build up to the role that I think I probably deserved.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. And you at one point started sharing a little bit more about your story and your struggles on social media. Was that before you started your company?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, exactly. So the genesis of Dyslexia in Adults and the community that’s associated with it is really, like I said, just my own personal experience. Because no one talks about adults, I thought I was genuinely the only one struggling with it. I thought that everyone else has got their self together and that I must not be dyslexic. I must just also be stupid. And so therefore, I just thought, do you know what? I’m gonna see if anyone else feels the same, I’m just going to put out a few ideas and see what happens.

And I was just incredibly lucky that my ideas connected and quite quickly, I started building a fairly decent following and then really started to realize I was helping people with what I was doing. And then the pandemic hit and I thought, do you know what? I’ve got the time to really actually work out how I can take this one step further and really help people.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s great. I think there’s a common misconception that with a lot of neurodivergent conditions like dyslexia that it’s present in childhood, and then somehow you magically grow out of it when you become an adult, which is not the case, even remotely.

Natalie Brooks: Exactly! I think what really frustrates me is how little the reality of the dyslexic experience is talked about, or neurodiversity as a whole. We talk about it through this really narrow lens of, you know, maybe struggling with spelling or struggling with reading aloud, but actually it’s the way that your brain processes things. It’s so complex and impacts so much of your everyday life. So opening up and having that real conversation is really important to me.

Carolyn Kiel: Absolutely. And it sounds like that’s what you’re doing. Well, first through your social media on Instagram, I know you share a lot of videos and a lot of content there, and then with starting your own online community. Tell me a little bit more about your community and exactly how does it help and support adults who are dyslexic?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah. So I really try and think of what I’m doing as a movement. I really want to try and empower adult dyslexics.

And so the social channels are really about talking about our experience in the most realistic, raw, honest way I can possibly think of. There is not an embarrassing story that I have not admitted on social media, including meeting Richard Branson and pooing in front of him when I was two years old. So there is genuinely not a story that I haven’t fessed up.

Every embarrassing mistake I have ever made has been broadcast on social media, because I think it’s really important to talk about those things and try and help people to realize that they aren’t alone, and it isn’t just them that feels this way or experiences neurodiversity in this way. So that’s kind of what the social channels are all about, is about bringing the message that it isn’t just you, you aren’t alone. There are thousands, millions of people who feel exactly the way you do.

And then the community that sits alongside that, what I realized is social media is great and it’s fantastic at getting the message to people, but then once you’ve got their attention, trying to actually help them create change, inform them on different ideas of how they can help themselves, but also understanding who they are and what their strengths are, and trying to really deep down, make them believe in their strengths. Because I think a lot of people know what the strengths of dyslexia are, but do they truly believe them, is a really complex, difficult thing to do. And when someone’s just scrolling on the sofa on a Sunday night, it’s not as easy to really deliver that change.

So I realized I needed people’s longer attention spans. And so I really wanted to try and create connections with people. And like I said, the whole genesis of this business that I have is because I felt alone. And so communities are really important to me and delivering that for people. So I really wanted to take that element of helping people and creating that environment where people don’t feel alone to the next level which is genuinely my pride and joy, I think I might be the luckiest person in the world.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s wonderful. So it really sounds like it creates a safe space for people to learn more about dyslexia and then to share their own experience as people who are dyslexic.

Natalie Brooks: Exactly. And I’m so honored that the community members are so honest and raw as well in the conversations that we have. So we had one member who stood up a couple of months ago and said, do you know what? My dyslexia actually resulted in me getting divorced, and the result of my divorce was that I was homeless. And I really believe this is all led from my dyslexia. And, you know, he really opened up in a very honest and real way, and that was really powerful. And then a couple of days ago we had a community member who had had their probation extended because they, their boss believed that they were struggling at work. And then three or four other people in the WhatsApp group said, oh my God, I can’t believe you just shared this. I was too nervous to say, but this happened to me last week. And then, you know, we had jumped on a call, five of us and sat there and said, yeah, this has happened to me. Yeah. I had this happen to me. And we worked out a practical, actionable steps for them to really help themselves.

And that was all created because they had the space to be honest and real with people who they knew understood their brains rather than, you know, if someone said to you, oh, I got my probation extended because I’m dyslexic, someone else might say, no you didn’t, it’s because you’re not good enough. And instead everyone else was like, yeah, I’ve had exactly the same experience. I totally understand.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. because especially those types of conversations that relate to work or other parts of life can be really challenging to have. It’s a lot, you know, to open up and be vulnerable while still maintaining your own your privacy because yeah, it’s a delicate balance to walk. So it’s great to have that support with a community that understands.

Natalie Brooks: Exactly. And, you know, sometimes we want actionable, practical steps to help ourselves. Sometimes we just want to rant. Like sometimes we just want people who will go, yeah, do you know what? Your boss sounds awful. You know, he sounds like a right, enter bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep. And that’s what they had in this space. And you know what? A lot of them messaged me saying, I really appreciate your advice and help, but I’m actually just really glad that I had someone to rant to.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Brooks: I think that both elements have a really important place.

Carolyn Kiel: And it sounds like that you’re also able to coach people through some of those challenging experiences, either one-on-one or with the rest of the group, through the community.

Natalie Brooks: Yes, I, in a funny way, I’m really lucky that I’ve had a lot of awful experiences and that means that I’m able to take the lessons and learnings from them and really deliver advice and say, you know, I’ve actually been through this. I know what you’re going through because I’ve been through it too. And I’ve actually not been through it once, I’ve been through it twice, or I’ve been through it three times. And let me tell you how I failed and so you can not do this again. I’ve had probably about 20 bosses. I just seem to go through them like this. And so I’ve told so many of them I’m dyslexic that I almost had the opportunity to kind of trial and error how to tell someone you’re dyslexic. So I’ve tried every option in the book, so I know what works.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. You’re able to kind of do that, I want to say like AB testing, but just sort of seeing different scenarios!

Natalie Brooks: In my own life though, which is probably not wise. But it has ended up being very helpful.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, wow. That’s really cool. So you’ve been running this community, this business since about 2019. What would you say is like the biggest challenge that you faced in either launching it or running the online community or the business?

Natalie Brooks: Gosh, I could, I could really list a thousand challenges, but I think, you know, as my whole spiel is about being as honest and open as possible, the reality is the biggest one is imposter syndrome. It is a curse that I struggle with every single day. And it’s taken me a really long time to even just be able to talk about the business. Because for a long time, people used to find out that I did this and they’d say, “oh my God, I can’t believe you did that! This is so amazing! Why don’t you talk about it?” And I was like, “oh no, no, not me. It’s nothing. I just, you know, it’s just this thing that I do on the side,” and I would start flapping my hands as you can see if you’re watching the video right now. And people would say “no, but you’re really helping people! And, you know, look at these incredible results that you’ve had.” And I just said, “oh no, no, no.”

It’s just really sad. And I look back and less than a year ago and I could barely even talk about it, let alone talk about it positively. So yeah, I think imposter syndrome is a real challenge I still probably struggle with to this day. And especially when you’re the face of the brand, the brand is you and you are the brand. When you have this chronic imposter syndrome, it can be really difficult.

Carolyn Kiel: It’s challenging, especially when you’re starting something brand new to you. Like I imagine that sort of this venture into entrepreneurship is, is very new. And I think a lot of people are just kind of trying things out and figuring out as they go along. You know, especially if they’ve been in more of those corporate or traditional types of jobs.

Natalie Brooks: I had this idea when I was kind of 22, 23. I thought, someone should do something about this whole adult dyslexia thing. Someone’s going to make a lot of money doing that one day.

And for years, I just thought, that’s a really good idea. These people really need help. There’s a lot of ways that you could really deliver for this. And eventually it just got to the point where I was like, no one else is doing this. I’m going to have to do it myself. So yeah, the imposter syndrome just cursed me for years, but it means I didn’t even start it.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. And I think it’s great. And is, is the community now, is that the main thing that you focus on, or do you still work in corporate at all?

Natalie Brooks: No, I actually decided to do this full time about two months ago, so it’s barely new. I’ve been doing on the side until now, but I just saw so much potential with it.

And I could really see that it needed my time and effort. And I just had this set of circumstances that meant I could really dive in with both feet. And really it is just gone from naught to 60 in even those two months. It’s amazing what giving something your full-time focus can really deliver.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. That can really make a difference. And the community that you have, do you have people from all around the world in there?

Natalie Brooks: Yes, genuinely all around the world, which does make it quite challenging with time zones. So we have Australia, America, Africa, across Europe, South America. Yeah. You name a kind of major population zone, and we have members there. Which is really amazing because I think firstly, it really delivers this sense that we are genuinely not alone because the experience is so universal. When you can speak to someone who lives in New Zealand, Central America like rural America and then London, and they are telling you exactly the same experience, word for word: “You know, my teacher said this, it chronically affected my confidence. I then went into the workplace. This happened to me.” And it’s the same story. It really makes you realize that you aren’t alone.

And then the other thing I love about the fact that it’s a multi-national community is that you learn from the different cultures. So, you know, what someone is doing in the Netherlands might be different from what someone is doing in the US from what’s different happening in Australia and UK. And so we really learn about the different ways that the different cultures are trying to tackle this problem.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. That’s excellent. Yeah. It sounds like such a great supportive community and a wonderful resource that was sorely needed.

Natalie Brooks: I’m just so grateful that it’s now big enough that we can really help each other. So you know, what I was talking about, there’s people who were struggling with their probation yesterday. One of them was a forensic scientist. I was thinking, this is really weird. I, I know another forensic scientist in this community! So I was able to say, oh, you’re struggling with your report writing and you know, for your forensic science job. But like, I don’t know enough about forensic science. I can give you the basics of how to work in a corporate environment and how to help yourself, but I probably couldn’t help you with writing a report of that nature. But, I know someone who can! So there’s a community member who’s been in the community for nine months. She’s also a dyslexic ambassador for her organization and has recently become a dyslexic assessor, so she’s just a powerhouse of a woman. And so I said, let me put you two together, and actually in about an hour’s time, they’re having a zoom call to run through how to write reports as a dyslexic forensic scientist.

So yeah, the breadth of the community means that we’re really able to help people on a general scale, but also really specific scale, which is amazing too. This is really my passion and I can’t, I just, it makes me so happy to talk about it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like the community is now big enough, so that you actually would sort of randomly have two forensic scientists among it. That’s wonderful.

Natalie Brooks: That was very unusual. I was quite surprised, but yeah, normally it’s two people in marketing and it’s, you know, yes, I can help you there. But two forensic scientists, I was pretty chuffed with.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s awesome. And so it sounds like, you know, The company and the community is still relatively new, just starting in 2019. But what do you say are sort of more of your long-term goals for Dyslexia in Adults?

Natalie Brooks: Oh, gosh. Yes, it definitely is an ever-evolving beast. I really, it’s really important to me to try new things and be fine with something not working and consistently evolving and improving. So we take a lot of feedback from the community. In terms of the long-term goals, I really would like to start doing two things.

So, doing some work to create societal change. Like I said, this is really about creating a movement. And so I’ve actually just ordered books off Amazon on how to create grassroots movements and what you have to do to really create structural change in society. So want to look at how exactly I can best leverage the amazing people I have around me to start delivering change. Because like I said at the top: really what a lot of dyslexic people are looking for is just a bit of understanding and a bit of kindness. And so the best way I can deliver that is by trying to educate people and explain to people what it is that we’re looking for and why we’re worth giving that time to.

And then, you know, as that goes hand in hand with eventually working with businesses to create that change and helping them understand the value that dyslexic people can bring to their organizations and how to help them. Because even when I worked at amzn and I told my boss I was dyslexic and he said, “I’m really sorry. I don’t know how to help you. I don’t know where to turn.” And if one of the biggest companies in the world is saying that, imagine what else is kind of going on in the world?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think more, a wider education and just awareness and understanding and appreciation of dyslexia and you know, the, the challenges and the strengths that go along with it is really important. And I know people in your community talk a lot. It sounds like they share a lot of their common challenges. And you were mentioning earlier a little bit about common dyslexic strengths. And yeah, I don’t know that a lot of people are really that educated about what some of those common strengths are.

So I’d love to learn either are there certain strengths that either get discussed or come out in the community that you run, or just other ones that, that you feel that you have personally, as someone who’s dyslexic?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. I think the best way to think about dyslexic strengths as they tend to fall into two buckets. There’s the lived experience strengths that you have from living with the challenge that can be dyslexia. So dyslexic people tend to be incredibly hard working. Really determined people. So if something doesn’t go well or there’s a problem, or they’re having a difficulty, they will just keep on coming back and keep on trying until they succeed. I think about the amount of times I used to rewrite my homework until I got the grades that I wanted. I’m like a self-confessed nerd. I did mention earlier. And so, you know, I think I see a lot of that in dyslexic people.

We’re also incredibly empathetic in terms of, we understand what it feels like to struggle, to feel a bit unusual, to feel a little bit out of the norm. And so we want to help people that feel like that. The amount of people who tell me, “I became a teacher because I don’t want to see another dyslexic child be treated the way I was treated in the educational system.” Or nurses who say, “you know, I just want to help people who are struggling or having a difficulty.”

Or even if in your normal corporate job, you want to help the new member of staff upskill quicker and learn faster because you just really care about helping those types of people. So I’d say that’s one bucket, which when you said what’s the main thing that people talk about, it often tends to be that bucket of, it’s really made me very hard working or determined and resilient, and I’m a very people person, tends to be brought up a lot.

And then there’s the way that we process information, the way that our brain takes things in differently and looks at them differently. And that’s covers a lot of different areas, I’ll talk about myself so that people have got a kind of jumping off point that they can come from. So that tends to be because dyslexic people don’t like the minutia, the small parts of processing information. We really like the global view. Being able to see everything, understand everything. And so that brings so many incredible strengths such as problem-solving because you see so many different elements and so many different parts of the problem.

Sometimes being very organized because you can see from start to finish every single element that you need to work through. Or it can make you very good at simplifying or storytelling or explaining a concept because you’re able to see everything one way, and then you’re desperately trying to simplify it because your brain doesn’t like a lot of information. So it’s trying to come out in the easiest way possible. So there are a couple of bits and pieces that can come from the way that your brain processes information, but there’s lots more such as being very creative or image centric and all those different bits and pieces, but they’re the ones that resonate with me.

Unfortunately, I can’t draw to save my life. And so I’m, I’m a little bit angry at the creative one, because I don’t have it myself. So I just, I don’t talk about that one.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s great. Yeah. Thanks for going through those. I think we also find that in a lot of neurodivergent people as well, a lot of those sort of, obviously thinking differently because we think differently about the way that the world works and own experiences. So yeah, that’s really great. Fantastic. Wow.

So, yeah, Natalie where can we find your community online if people want to learn more about it and potentially join up?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. So the best place to find me is on Instagram, it’s dyslexia_in_adults, and you can check out the content and see if it’s something that’s helping you. And then we can always go further into looking into the community and the website is DyslexiaInAdults.co as well. So we can discuss whether or not it’s right for you to join and be involved and jump into the amazing community.

Carolyn Kiel: All right, fantastic. And I’ll put that link in the show notes so that people can just click on it when they listen to this episode. Awesome. So, yeah, Natalie, thank you so much for being on my show. As we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Natalie Brooks: Yeah, I think just, I would really like if people walked away from this thinking, “oh, do you know what? I, I’m not alone. I’m not the only one that feels like this. And I’m not the only one that’s struggling.” Because I think that feeling alone in this problem just really doesn’t help anyone. So that’s what I really am keen to try and help people change.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, fantastic. And it sounds like you’re well on your way to making those changes. So yeah. Thank you so much, Natalie, for sharing your story with my listeners.

Natalie Brooks: Thank you for having me. It was lovely to chat to you. Have a nice day.

Carolyn Kiel: Great talking to you too.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help us spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend. Give us a shoutout on your social media or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of our episodes on our website and sign up for our free newsletter at www.beyond6seconds.com. Until next time.