Episode 105: Moving forward after a stroke with Marcia Moran

Marcia Moran was a successful business strategist who had been building her business over the last 20+ years. She thought she had life by the tail, but little did she know what was in store.

After suffering a major stroke in 2014 at the age of 53, Marcia applied her skills in planning and strategy as she strived to become whole. In 2019 she published a book about her experience called “Stroke FORWARD,” to bring hope to stroke survivors and their caretakers, and share how becoming her own health advocate and exploring holistic methods for healing were keys to her recovery. Marcia speaks and shares her message of hope, inspiration, healing, and a way forward across the country.

During this episode, you will hear Marcia talk about:

• Her experience with her stroke and the challenges she faced during her recovery
• How her husband Jim became her health advocate until she was eventually able to advocate for herself
• How holistic health methods helped her recover from aphasia
• How her book can help stroke survivors and caretakers navigate life after a stroke

To find out more about Marcia and her work, you can check out her official site at strokeforward.com, including some special bonuses for Beyond 6 Seconds listeners! You can also purchase her book here and connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.

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A full episode transcript is available below.

Carolyn: Today on Beyond 6 Seconds.

Marcia: If I had a stroke, that’s behind me now. What’s in front is what I care about. And I think that’s one reason I got better because as long as I figured what is in store for me tomorrow. What can I do today to get me to that tomorrow?

Carolyn: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds. The podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories and achievements of everyday people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn: On today’s episode I’m speaking with Marcia Moran. Marcia was a successful business strategist who has been building her business over the last 20 plus years. She thought she had life by the tail, but little did she know what was in store. After suffering a major stroke in 2014 at the age of 53, Marcia applied her skills in planning and strategy as she strive to become whole. In 2019, she published a book about her experience called Stroke Forward to bring hope to stroke survivors and their caretakers and share how becoming her own health advocate and exploring holistic methods for healing were keys to her recovery. Marcia speaks and shares her message of hope, inspiration, healing and a way forward across the country. Marcia, welcome to the podcast.

Marcia: Thank you so much, Carolyn. It’s a beautiful evening.

Carolyn: It is. It absolutely is. So, Marcia I’m really excited to hear your story. I read Stroke Forward, I just finished it a couple days ago and I’m excited to help share your story with my listeners. I think there’s just so many things that we can learn from it. Starting from the very beginning, what was your life like right before you had your stroke?

Marcia: So, I think I had a normal life. I worked out with clients every day. I made dinner for my husband every day. We went to the lake every weekend. So, it was really normal for me. And then I had a stroke and it was not normal at all anymore.

Carolyn: Wow. And you had a stroke at a relatively young age, although of course people can have a stroke at any age, I would suppose.

Marcia: Right.

Carolyn: And I would think that people who haven’t experienced a stroke or haven’t gone through that experience, may not really understand what it’s like, and maybe they wouldn’t even recognize it if they themselves were having a stroke. Can you tell me what happened, what it was like for you that morning?

Marcia: Well, I had no idea that I had a stroke at all. I didn’t even think about it until the paramedics came and said, oh, when did she have that stroke?

Carolyn: Wow.

Marcia: So, when I woke up the first time, I was feeling weird and I knew I wouldn’t have breakfast with my friend that morning, so I picked up my phone and I tried dialing her number and it just wasn’t coming out. So, I put my phone down and thought I’m just going to text later. I rolled over and I got the most imaginable headache. I just couldn’t stand it. And I still fell asleep. So when I woke up the second time, I was scared because I had nothing. There was no movement on my right hand side from my head down to my toes. And I knew that if I didn’t get out of bed, then I might not get out of bed at all. So, I fell to the floor and dragged myself using the carpet across to the bedroom door, which was closed, and I had to reach up and grab it with my left hand and I didn’t quite reach it so I was there struggling to find any purchase that I could get on the handle and finally it snuck open and I was so tired and sweaty by that time that I just had to take a break. And when I had enough oomph to drag myself down the hallway, I thought at least the hallway will be better because it’s wood. Yeah, it’s not better.

Carolyn: Oh.

Marcia: Yeah. So, I actually managed to drag myself down the hallway but I finally just totally ran out of gas. And I knew my husband was downstairs because you could hear the TV. And I thought well he’s gonna come up for soda at some point. Well, I don’t know what it was, but there was a big crash and he came up and he talked to me and he said, “Marcia, what’s wrong?” I couldn’t talk. And he said, “Can you talk to me?” And it’s like, no, there’s nothing inside of me.

Carolyn: Wow.

Marcia: And he said, “I’m gonna call the paramedics.” And at that point I nodded my head, yes, a little bit and it was like finally I knew that somebody would take care of me. But until that point I didn’t know whether or not I’ve even make it down the hallway.

Carolyn: Wow.

Marcia: Yeah.

Carolyn: And you never did find out what that crash was?

Marcia: Nope.

Carolyn: So kind of an intervention to bring your husband up and get his attention so that he could help you, wow.

Marcia: Yeah. And I’m glad something crashed because otherwise he would have come up and I have no idea what he would have found.

Carolyn: Yeah. Wow. It’s incredible. And I should say that you kept yourself very healthy. I knew you were very active and tending to your health, but I know at the same time you also had a family history of stroke and aneurysm, so I’m guessing that probably played into it a bit in hindsight.

Marcia: Well, no. So I actually had a stroke that happens for no reason. So, my carotid artery just tore off a little bit. And so a false lumen or blood clot formed and then broke free. But when I was in the hospital I was asking, well, why did I have a stroke? And they said, you had a stroke just because you had a stroke. I was like, okay.

Carolyn: Wow.

Marcia: So it can happen to anyone for any reason.

Carolyn: Wow. Yeah. I guess I had heard somewhere that sometimes the first symptom of people when they have a stroke is that they have a stroke, like there is no real warning.

Marcia: Right.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: Yeah. I mean I should have thought of that but my mind was elsewhere by the time I was mobile.

Carolyn: You spent a good part of your book really talking through what your recovery, and as you say, your way forward was like, starting from waking up at the hospital and all of the therapy and the treatments that you did there and then continuing on to what happened once you were discharged and the months and years that followed. And you talk a lot about the importance of health advocates, both needing one and eventually becoming your own health advocate. When did you realize how important it was to have a health advocate?

Marcia: So, I had just transferred upstairs to a patient room from the ER and a nurse had put me in the bathroom, and she hurried off to make the bed, and that was a mistake for me because I went crash because I have no mobility on my right hand side, right? So she and my husband ran in to see what happened, and she said she was sorry and my husband thought, yes, but I think I will be here from this point forward. So, he knew nothing about advocacy. I knew nothing about advocacy. So he learned every single day when something happened what he should do. So, the next day I got a lunch from the kitchen. Now, I was supposed to have liquids only. And I was supposed to drink it, so I drank it face forward, then I moved my head to the left to swallow because my right hand side was paralyzed, right? Well, when they sent the chicken up, I was like, ooh, yay, chicken! And I took a bite and immediately choked. So 65% of people actually have dysphagia which is they can’t cough and they can’t swallow because there is something wrong with their throat muscles. So I don’t know what they did to get it out. That completely blanks out of my mind. But after that my husband watched me like a hawk.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm.

Marcia: And so again we learned, apparently, you have to watch what the person eats every single day, or in my case drinks. So every day he learned something new, unfortunately, and that’s the bad thing for us is because this is the wrong time to have to learn advocacy. You wanna learn before somebody goes into the hospital. And I think that’s why I wrote a book on advocacy because people won’t probably read it until they are in the hospital caring for a loved one. But if they read it then, they can at least know where to start.

Carolyn: Absolutely. That concept of a health advocate is probably pretty new to people who aren’t in that situation and as you said aren’t really thinking about it until they are confronted with that. So, what that actually mean being a health advocate? What does that encompass?

Marcia: Well, that means that you are responsible for making sure that someone is cared for the way they want to be cared for. So with the nurses caring for you, the doctors caring for you, the physical therapist, occupational therapist or even the insurance company, somebody has got to be aware of what’s going on. And as the patient, I had no clue what was going on, so it was my husband’s place to take over and he did. I mean I was so lucky because he wanted to make sure that I was okay. And if you don’t have a spouse, you have to maybe look for a friend, a real good friend who will take that position for you. Now, when I got better, I started taking it back and that’s kinda, my husband gave it back to me but not willingly. But he realized that I was the one who needed to exercise this for myself. I was the one who needed to be sure that I ate properly. So, he willingly or unwillingly I guess gave it back to me because I’m the one who needed to be the one who took care of myself for my healthcare and just every day.

Carolyn: Wow. And at what point did you realize that you needed to become your own health advocate and start taking it back?

Marcia: Well, that was actually in August of 2014. So, he was actually going back to work and the clincher for us is he took me out for a drive. And if I could drive myself, he would let me go. If I couldn’t drive myself, then we would have another conversation. But I didn’t actually have full control over where I went, so he gave me a 4-mile radius around our house and if I had a doctor’s appointment which was out of that radius I could go, but I could never use a highway. So, he made sure that I drove safely by keeping my speed down and I didn’t have people zooming in and out so I was actually quite scared, you know, it took me 3 years before I was going at a normal pace and not looking multiple times every time I came to a corner. I mean it was scary for me.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm. Would he sit beside you while you were driving and kind of watch you until he started to feel comfortable that you could do it on our own?

Marcia: Yup. Absolutely.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: And so, we have a stick shift.

Carolyn: Wow. Okay.

Marcia: So, he really wanted to know, can I get it into gear?

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: And so I couldn’t get it into reverse unless I used my left hand. And I could move it into first through fourth using my right hand but it really hurt.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: But he wanted to make sure that I would be safe enough on my own.

Carolyn: And that’s towards the end of the book, you do talk about that you were able to drive yourself to doctor’s appointments in short radiuses.

Marcia: Yup.

Carolyn: Oh, that’s wonderful. And you talk a lot in the book about your husband, Jim, as well as other people, your sister, and your friends and your doctors, and your book is mostly your perspective but you include the perspectives of other people, especially Jim figures as a second narrator who brings in his side of the story. What inspired you to use that kind of storytelling to bring in other perspectives as well as your own in the book?

Marcia: It’s because everyone else has a different perspective on how you have your stroke. So, when I had my stroke, Jim who lives with me, his life was also changed forever. And although we saw many of the same things, we saw them very differently. And I think it’s really important to understand that as a caretaker, he is important to see the way he feels things as right. I’m right too but so is he. And my sister, she looks at things very differently than we do. And she is also right. So it’s the whole gamut of everyone who cares for you is allowed to feel how they feel and share how they feel. So a lot of my friends actually they still say how frightened they were when I had my stroke. And it’s been six years now and I’m going, we have to get over it!

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: I’m over it. But I think it’s really true like if I had a friend who had a stroke, I’m not sure I would get over it in the same way that the stroke survivors get over it.

Carolyn: Right. Thinking about the books that I have read or seen, I don’t know a lot of books that talk about the perspectives of a caregiver or the friends and family of someone who is going through a medical crisis or another large crisis so it was very interesting. And I’d imagine that it helps a lot of people relate to the story, the wider story, who may have friends or relatives going through a medical crisis like this.

Marcia: Yeah. It seems to be that way, yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. We alluded a bit to some of the challenges that you faced when you were in the hospital, just a little, but there is quite—you go through quite a lot in the book and obviously you mentioned that as a result of the stroke, your entire right side was paralyzed, and that had implications for eating and swallowing. But you also faced a lot of really big challenges that you spent, you know, many months and years working through and getting those abilities back. Could you talk a little bit about some of the bigger challenges that you faced?

Marcia: Yeah. So, one of my biggest challenges was aphasia which is a speaking disorder. And I thought by August of 2015, so it’s a year and a quarter after my stroke, that I would be ready to find a job, and I sent my resume out, and I actually had 2 calls back. And I’m going wooh-hooh!

Carolyn: That’s great!

Marcia: Yay! So I practiced my resume a little bit but I thought, piece of cake! This is going to be easy, right? So I had my first interview, I picked up the phone, we exchanged our names and they asked the first question and I couldn’t say a word. And I tried again and I couldn’t say a word. And so eventually they got tired of waiting and hang up and that ended my interview. And I was devastated. So, Jim came home and I was telling him about how the interview went and he said, “Okay, it’s your first interview since the stroke, get yourself some slack.” Okay, fine. So, I thought I will practice for the next one. So, I thought about what I would say, I thought about, these are the questions they are going to ask me and I practiced, practiced, practiced. The phone rang, I said my name, we started the interview and I was off like a rocket. It’s like, wooh-hooh! Well, we were halfway through the interview and I shut down again completely. And so I’ve thought about this a couple ways. So when you think about when you are talking to people, you understand what you say I have Broca’s area affected. So, I understood what they were saying. And I knew what I wanted to say back. But I couldn’t say it back. So I said something different. So there’s two different voices going on in your head and I also thought that there’s something between conversational English and the English that you say during the workday. They are two very different things. So, I was okay with conversational English but I couldn’t talk about the things that were lower level than that. So, I was completely at a loss of what to do. So I did nothing.

Carolyn: Wow. So, yeah, and you do talk about that particular incident with the job interviews in your book as well, and I get the sense from you talking about that, you figured in maybe a year and a half after your stroke, that you would be ready to go back to work. Through this situation, did you learn to be more patient with yourself and your own recovery?

Marcia: Yes, I did. So, the interesting thing about aphasia is the American Aphasia Association, no, I think it’s National Aphasia Association says that you have got to be out of your aphasia by month number 3 or you probably have aphasia for life. Now, they do say that people get better over time. So, I figured I will try something different and I found a couple of chiropractors and they say that chiropractors are not the type of doctors you wanna see. But I found a couple chiropractors that treated my aphasia differently. So one does low light laser therapy and he puts it by Broca’s area on my head so it’s where the stroke was. And that is held for 5 minutes and during the time that’s there, I do the cross crawl, which is you lift your leg and arm, different ones, and then you set it down and you lift your other leg and arm. So, you are doing the cross crawl and it’s really weird. I guess it’s hard to communicate over the internet. But in essence what it’s doing is making your brain work on different sides and it’s actually pretty interesting, because after I did it for the first time, my aphasia was a little less and so I decided that was a treatment I would continue and it didn’t break me of my aphasia but it made it like I said it was less bad than it was. Then I was at 3-1/2 years after my stroke, I had another chiropractor that said Marcia, you should try neurofeedback. And I thought, okay what is this? I haven’t ever heard of this. He said, go to this website and read about it. And I went to the website and it said it did things for ADHD, anxiety, strokes, a whole host of things. And they also said it treated mild to moderate TBI, which is someone who had a brain injury, and 85% of those people are better. That’s pretty good. So, I did some more research. I read books and I finally decided there’s no way I cannot do this. So, I went in and had them do it and believe it or not, after the first time I actually did feel better. The weird thing was when we were doing it, so it has two leads on the forward, two leads on the back, and the ground, I couldn’t feel a thing. I could see my brain waves on the computer monitor but I didn’t feel anything.

Carolyn: Wow.

Marcia: Yeah. It was weird. But after I left, I could speak better. It felt like although I had two voices, it felt like they were more in sync with each other. And so I’ve had 16 sessions, and I speak beautifully now I think.

Carolyn: Yeah!

Marcia: And I went back for one more session about 6 months after it was done and that’s the last I’ve had them.

Carolyn: Wow. That’s amazing. And is that the technological breakthrough that you mentioned in your book description that really helped you?

Marcia: It is.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: So, at least for me I found something that worked.

Carolyn: You know, my image of a chiropractor is someone who works on your back and it never would have occurred to me that there are these other types of treatments that some chiropractors can do, you know, around brain waves and that’s incredible.

Marcia: Yeah.

Carolyn: Throughout your book, you talked about trying different types of treatments which I believe really led you to find this one that worked well for you and I thought that it was really important to highlight because sometimes when we go into a medical emergency situation, you are not in the right state of mind to question the doctor or think of well, what kind of options do I have? You are just like okay just give me what you have, just you are the expert, you tell me. But you really make a point about like if something doesn’t feel right, if a doctor is not someone that you are gelling with or getting along with like don’t be afraid to change doctors or to change treatments and you actually did that a couple of times through your journey.

Marcia: I did. Yeah. I felt kind of bad but I had to do it because, you know, at certain point you’re going to say okay I’m gonna go with this doctor and whatever he gives me he gives me or you’re gonna say wait, I think there’s more out there for me.

Carolyn: And so how did you determine what treatments to try out and how did you decide which ones were not really working for you to kinda switch it up?

Marcia: So, I found the chiropractors that worked on laser and neurofeedback through luck. I just met somebody who said I know somebody who… and I went, hmm, okay. I’m gonna give it a shot but I don’t really believe it. Well, it worked. So now what I’m saying when I’m talking to people is I’m shouting their names widely. It’s like doctor so and so does this, doctor so and so does this, and I think it’s important for you to think about neurofeedback or laser treatment because I know that it works for some people. It may not work for everyone but it worked for me.

Carolyn: Yeah. And before you found the chiropractor, you also went through quite extensive rounds of speech therapy, both in the hospital and in rehab and then in your home and I know at one point you were doing I think it was in your home and you kind of concluded after a couple of weeks that it wasn’t really working for you and you needed to go to a different facility or a different treatment for speech therapy as well.

Marcia: Yeah. So I think that speech therapy is really important but it’s not the be all end all. Because again they talk about two levels of language. You have the language that you talk every day in conversational English and then you have to talk at a deeper level to get things across for your work. And so I think there is at least for me there’s a misstep between the two because I never got to the second one through my speech therapists.

Carolyn: And you had physical therapy as well for the motion on your right side.

Marcia: Right. So, I had physical therapy and it went through August of 2014 and I got a physical therapist on my own to work me for another year because I felt like I just wasn’t firing in all cylinders and she got me good. Actually, she got me very good. I think I’m a little weak on the right hand side and it doesn’t fire at quite the same cylinder as the rest of my body, but if you see me walking down the street, you don’t know that I had a stroke.

Carolyn: Wow. When you are reading the book, you are really immersed in just how much time especially in the first few months that you spent in some kind of therapy. It’s amazing the amount of patience and perseverance and just focus that you had at that time just, you know, having come out of such a traumatic medical event. But still, I never got the sense that you really spent a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself or saying why me or any of that, you were just very much like, all right, what do we gotta do? Let’s put our energy into this.

Marcia: Yup. So I can’t help it. So, if I had a stroke, that’s behind me now. What’s in front is what I care about. And I think that’s one reason I got better because as long as I figured what is in store for me tomorrow. What can I do today to get me to that tomorrow? So, I will admit I had a few sad moments and after I had my little sad moment, I said, okay, so that’s enough, let’s move forward again. And so when I say I worked out every day, I actually worked out every single day. And I feel a little sad for that sometimes because that’s what I tell the stroke survivors when I go and talk to them it’s like you have to work out every single day. But that’s what neurofeedback is and neuroplasticity is all about. It’s about what you do to make yourself better or worse however you choose to go. So, you either get better because you want to get better or you are going to get worse because you choose not to do anything.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s such a connection between the physical and the mental parts of our bodies just in general and you know, especially in this situation. You now go and spend time talking and speaking with stroke survivors and other people who, you know, have experience with stroke either themselves or their friends and family and now you have this wonderful book that really lays out your experience and is very clear about what happens at each stage after the event of the stroke through months and years. How can stroke survivors and caretakers, family, friends, how can they use your book to kinda navigate life after a stroke?

Marcia: Well, again, I think it sets a ground level like these are things that we did and some of them are transferable. Obviously, the key is to really look for different ways of doing things to make sure that your patient, whether it’s you or a loved one, gets the care that they need. Maybe they are getting the care they need from their doctor, that’s fine, but if they aren’t, where else can you look? And I think the holistic doctors, they care about taking care of the whole you. I think that’s one of the key points for me it’s like I wanted to be seen like a person not an arm. So you’re working on my arm but my whole body hurts. So what do you do? They have masseuses that work the whole body and that’s so important for me.

Carolyn: Yeah. And your book also the way it’s structured it shares your perspective, talks about what’s going on, shares other people’s perspectives and then at the end of each chapter, you also have a summary of advice for people to take away which I think is incredibly helpful. And things as basic as, you know, don’t be afraid to stop a treatment if it’s not working for you, or think about this beforehand. So, I think that’s gotta be helpful as well.

Marcia: Yup. Yeah.

Carolyn: So the book has been out, it came out late 2019, is that right?

Marcia: Yup.

Carolyn: So a couple of months. So, what kind of feedback have you gotten from people who have either read your book or even heard you speak on this topic?

Marcia: Well, the amazing thing is everybody I have heard has said really positive things about it. So that makes me feel humble. I spoke to a stroke group last Thursday and the interesting thing is, belonging to Toastmasters, I had a 40-minute speech all prepared, and I practiced it and I was ready to give it. And I was walking around the house that day, and I saw things, like I have a belt that she put around my waist and walked me around the nurse’s station that first night in the hospital, and I have little marbles that I used to get my toes working and stuff like that. Then I thought, you know, those things like the marbles and the belt are probably what these stroke survivors care about, not my speech. So, I loaded a box full of stuff and I went to the stroke group and I actually asked them what they wanted to hear. Did they want my speech, which was by the way 40 minutes long, or did they want me to talk really from my heart? And they said they actually wanted some of both, because my speech describes my stroke, how it happened, how I got to the hospital, that sort of thing. But then once I was there, how did I get better? And that’s what they wanted to hear about my little box of goodies, And one of the things out of the box, so, I have a heating pad that’s about 4 feet long and 2 feet wide and I used to lay on it all the time because it helped me feel a little bit better. Well I still lay on it. Because I either got used to it or I just like it.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Marcia: Yeah. So, I think I learned a really important lesson that day because the stroke survivors wanna hear what’s important to them and it might be different every single time. So, when I speak to the stroke survivors, I think I’m gonna say okay what do you want me to talk about? So it’s more like what we are doing now, it’s just a conversation.

Carolyn: That’s great. And I think bringing that box of goodies, those items that you used in your recovery, I mean that makes it real in a way that sometimes words can completely convey.

Marcia: Yeah.

Carolyn: Really powerful stuff. Do you have any particular goals for the book or is it just to continue to inspire stroke survivors and their families?

Marcia: I wanted to continue to be a resource for them. I want to speak as well. So I think that if I get out and speak about what my experience was with the stroke, then more people will understand that maybe they need to be aware of, gee, I wonder what a stroke looks like, you know.

Carolyn: Yup.

Marcia: So, do you mind if I go through the BEFAST?

Carolyn: Oh, that would be great.

Marcia: So B is for balance. So, are you balanced on one side or the other and if not you are having a stroke probably. E is for eyes. So, are you having disjoint between your eyes, so maybe it’s getting narrower or maybe one eye is completely blocked, so that might be a stroke. F is for face. Is it drooping? And mine apparently was, because that meant that I couldn’t talk for me as well. A is for arms or legs. So, again if you can’t lift them, you are having a stroke. S is for speech and T is for time and it’s time to call 911.

Carolyn: Wow. Thank you for supplying that. It’s important for people to recognize when other people are in distress and having a stroke.

Marcia: Right.

Carolyn: You are doing such great work. How can people get in touch with you if they wanna learn more about your speaking or the book or the work that you do?

Marcia: So my website is strokeforward.com.

Carolyn: And I know you have information about, you know, the types of topics you talk about and more information about the book and your story, so that’s wonderful. And I understand that you have a free set of goodies for our listeners here at Beyond 6 Seconds and I can put a link to that in the show notes as well. That’s sort of a special section of your website, could you describe that?

Marcia: Yes. So I give people who buy my book some special goodies. I have 12 things that you need to know when you are having a life crisis, I say. I have videos that you can see with me and my therapist and I have a list of websites, books and other things you might want to see just to see if you are interested in that information. And I like that you can see Jill Volte Taylor, who is one of the people who had a stroke, talk about what her stroke was like on my list of goodies. And so you can receive that by going to strokeforward.com/bookbonus.

Carolyn: Thank you for that. And I’ll put that link in the show notes too so people have easy access and can just click right on it. So, that’s wonderful. I really appreciate you sharing that. Thank you so much Marcia for sharing your story on my podcast. Is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything else that they can help or support you with?

Marcia: Well, if they read my book, I would really like them to go on Amazon.com and put what they think of the book. So, even if you don’t like it, I guess, leave something?

Carolyn: 5-star reviews people on Amazon, please!

Marcia: So, the thing that I really want people to know is never give up. It’s all up to you. And I think that you should be really proud of the little things that you accomplish every single day.

Carolyn: Wonderful. Thank you so much Marcia.

Marcia: Thank you, Carolyn.

Carolyn: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help us spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend. Give us a shoutout on your social media or write a review on Apple podcast or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of our episodes on our website and sign up for our free newsletter at www.beyond6seconds.com. Until next time.