Episode 122: I am not a unicorn: a Black man’s experiences in America – with Kevin M. Yates

Kevin M. Yates is a learning & development leader with a career spanning 20+ years, a sought-after expert in the field of learning measurement, a global public speaker and e-book author, and so much more…

One thing he is not, however, is a unicorn.

On this episode, Kevin returns to Beyond 6 Seconds to talk about what he means by “unicorn,” and how it relates to his experiences as a Black man living and working in the United States. He speaks candidly about the impact of race in his professional and personal life, including how he sometimes feels he is seen as a “unicorn” in professional environments, as well as the “unspoken protocol” he follows every time he leaves his home. We also talk about how the racial and social justice movements of 2020 have further inspired him to live in authenticity by being transparent about his whole self and experiences, because as he puts it, “living in duality is too much work.”

Find out more about Kevin on his website, on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, on LinkedIn, and on YouTube.

Get your free copy of Kevin’s e-book, “L&D Detective Kit for Solving Impact Mysteries©”

Listen to my previous Beyond 6 Seconds interview with Kevin (episode 61) about how he created his dream career after a layoff.

Subscribe to the FREE Beyond 6 Seconds newsletter for all the latest news and updates about my podcast!

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: On today’s episode I am speaking with Kevin M. Yates. Kevin has actually been on my podcast before. He’s my first return guest and I’m very excited and honored that he wanted to come back and talk some more about his personal stories and his career and his experiences. And I will introduce him briefly again, for those who may not have checked out his podcast with me.

He is known in the global learning and development ,or L and D, community as the L and D detective. Kevin answers the question, what is the impact of learning? He solves measurement mysteries and investigates how learning activates performance and business goals using facts, clues, evidence, and data. Kevin’s career in learning and development includes over 20 years of experience in local and global roles for facilitation, instructional design, learning solutions design, learning technology, curriculum development, program management, leadership development, learning operations, learning analytics and impact analytics. Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

Kevin M. Yates: Oh my goodness. Who was that guy that you just introduced? He, he sounded pretty impressive. Was that me?

Carolyn Kiel: It was, and you know, I, as you know, I work in the learning and development field, so I’m like, I think that’s just about everything. I think you’ve done it all.

Kevin M. Yates: Sometimes it certainly feels that way. And thank you so much for having me back Carolyn. I appreciate that. And wow. I heard you say that I am your first return guest. That’s amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you for having me. I loved our first conversation and so I’m sure I’m going to love this one just as much, if not more.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I’m really excited to get to talk with you again. A few weeks ago, we had a brief chat as we were preparing for this episode. And you told me that one of the things you want us to talk about was the statement or this concept of you describing of yourself as saying that you are not a unicorn, which I found fascinating because the concept of unicorn, it seems like everybody would want to be a unicorn or a purple unicorn or whatever the phrase is these days. But you were adamant that and was like, no, you are not a unicorn. So tell me, what do you mean by that?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah, and that was a great conversation. And so it’s interesting because as I reflect on my experience as a Black man and particularly a Black man in learning and development, there aren’t many of us.

Right. There are some for sure. And there are some who are doing awesome, incredible, great work, but they’re aren’t a lot. And so there, there are times Carolyn, where it feels as though I am treated as a unicorn. Right. And I think that to add to that, if you think about my area of focus and specialty, which is measurement data and analytics, Then it even becomes a bit more, how do you say unique?

Because there aren’t a lot of us doing that work. Right. So if you think about how many Black men are there in L and D, and then you just think about how many Black men in L and D are focused on measurement data and analytics. And boy does that pool get really small. And so what I have experienced really over my career is from time to time, the perception thought or idea that I am unique or that I am somehow other than, or that I am different than, or that as a Black man, there is something particularly different about me because of the way in which I speak, because of the experiences that I’ve had in life, because of the work that I’ve done, because of the organizations in which I’ve worked there is often this perception that there is something very different about me as a Black man, again, because of those things I just described and what I have to remind myself quite often is that no, I am not a unicorn. I am not unique in that sense. I am not that different in that sense. There are many, many, many Black men who are successful, who have had incredible life experiences, who are able to articulate in ways that the world is able to understand what they are saying. And so, again, for me, there are times where it feels as though, and there are even times where I am treated as though I am an anomaly, but that is not the case. And so there are times where I do indeed feel like a unicorn, but I am not.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And I’m curious to learn more about your experience of being treated that way. Like what does that usually look like? I’d say in a professional setting.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. Well, I think that the most obvious one is the commentary or the observation that comes through with someone saying, wow, you speak really well. Or you really have a good grasp of the English language.

Carolyn Kiel:  Jeez.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. And it comes across almost as a surprise as if to say, wow, I didn’t know that people like you could speak that way as I just hear myself say that out loud, it’s actually kind of funny. Right? There’s that thought? And you know, I think that that is one of the ways that has been most both subliminal and obvious if I might use those two words together because it’s, it’s subtle, but it’s also in your face because I think that I can read between the lines there, because I think that what that means sometimes not all the time, but what that means sometimes is, wow, I didn’t know that Black men could speak that way or that would have that that use of vernacular or that could use the types of words that you use. And again, as I hear myself say that, how ridiculous is that? It sounds absolutely crazy, but you know, again, over my career, it is what I have experienced. So that would be, you know, an example of one of the most obvious ways.

Carolyn Kiel: Right, absolutely. And, you know, you just mentioned that you’ve sort of seen this over the course of your career. When you were on my show for the last episode, episode 61 about, I guess, in the first half of 2019 or so, you talked about through a major career transition that involved you leaving corporate for a while, where you had been and building your own brand as the L and D detective, and really building out your expertise in, in measurement. As you built that, what was your experience with being treated like a unicorn? Did it increase during that time or was it, I’m just curious to see, as you kind of went out on your own, what was that like?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. You know, I don’t know that it increased. And then again, I don’t want to give the impression that it is pervasive, that, you know, some of these, some of these experiences are far and few between, but enough for them to make an impact. I think that’s the best way for me to describe it. And so in answer to your question, what was it like when I was out on my own doing my own thing and building my own brand, you know, here’s an interesting way for me to think about it and maybe even our listeners today. Oddly enough. I think that one of the things that may have brought more attention to me and my work was the fact that, you know, again, there aren’t many Black men who are focused and specializing in measurement data and analytics for L and D. So. I do believe that one of the reasons that I was able to get the amount of attention that I did was just because I was one of probably very few Black men who are focused in that area. So I don’t know that that’s a bad thing, but again, I just don’t want there to be this thought or idea that I am so much more different than other Black men or African-American men who are doing incredible, amazing work. You know, again, it could be that because there aren’t many doing what I do, that attention is drawn to me for that reason, but I would hope that attention is drawn to me because I am narrowly focused on measurement data and analytics for learning and development and because I am pretty good at it. So I think that those are all the dynamics that come into play, even as I think about going out on my own and focusing on building my own brand and finding ways in which to elevate awareness about who I am amongst the global learning and development community. Does that make sense?

Carolyn Kiel: It does. Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, as you were building that brand and, and even now, one of the main things you do is that you are a speaker in this area because of the area of expertise in learning and development measurement that you’ve developed. So even during our COVID 19 times, you’re still speaking globally, even if you’re joining virtually, but you know, you’ve got audiences all around the world.

Kevin M. Yates: Yes. And you know, I am so humbled by that. I am very grateful for the way in which the global learning and development community has embraced me and the work that I do. And it is actually one of the reasons why the book that I just recently published an ebook called the L and D detective kit for solving impact mysteries. I made it free. I made it free to the global learning and development community. It is really my gift. It is my way of giving back to the global L and D community because the community has been so good to me and has embraced me and has been so interested in what I have to say about measuring the impact of training and learning and how to evaluate fulfillment of purpose for training and learning solutions. And so I do really feel blessed and fortunate to have made a name for myself in the global learning and development community. And, and I don’t believe that I would be where I am today were it not for people in our community, literally around the world who are supporting me, who are lifting me up and who are interested in what I have to say.

Carolyn Kiel: And that’s wonderful that you’ve given back in this way and just, you know, one more way to share your extensive knowledge and expertise in the measurement area. Fantastic.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. I can’t think of a better way to give back.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, that’s really wonderful. When we last talked on our last episode together that we did, you know, you shared a lot of your personal story, mainly what you were going through at the time where you had a major career change, you built up your personal brand, you reentered the corporate world, and you’re continuing now with both as well as being a speaker. But, you know, I understand today you wanted to talk a bit more about your experience as a Black man in learning and development. So. What has inspired you to want to share this particular story at this time?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah, I think that because of what we’ve experienced in 2020, here in North America, in the U S with the racial injustice, with so many, so many hurtful experiences that Black men are having here in the U S you know, that has really been at the forethought for me, it’s been a difficult summer here in the U S in North America with so many Black men having their lives taken away in what I consider to be unjustifiable ways. And so, as I think about those Black men who are no longer here with us, and I think about me, And what I have in common with them is that I am a Black man and what might come to a surprise or rather as a surprise to so many who know me from a professional perspective is that I too have had some very scary experiences with police officers.

I too have been in position where I was afraid for my life. And so the only difference at those times was that there were no cameras around. And so I very well could have been a victim of that kind of injustice and brutality. And I want to be clear in saying that I have a great deal of respect for law officers and for police. We rely on them.

And I believe that they are doing good work and they’re doing important work. You know, unfortunately there are some who have different thoughts, ideas, and perspectives about men of color. And so they then treat those men very differently. Right. So as I think about all of those dynamics, and then as I think about my work because not only am I a professional in the L and D industry, I am me. And so my professional me is a part of me, but there’s also the personal me. And so I want to continue on this journey that I am on of being a bit more transparent about my whole self, my authentic self, all that is me, even as part of my journey in the L and D industry, because I have this thought or this belief and I think that you and I may have even talked about it before, that it is much easier to live in authenticity because living in duality is too much work. And so even, you know, again, as an L and D professional, who is focused on measurement and impact and speaking all over the world and, and writing for magazines and writing my own ebook and all of that, what sits on the other side of that is me bringing my whole self to all that I do even bringing my whole self to this conversation that we’re having today, because quite often, race is a very difficult conversation.

It’s a very difficult topic and we kind of run away from it. But I think that because of what we’ve had to face here in the U S in North America and this year 2020, you know, not only with COVID, but again, some of the incidents that have happened at the beginning of the year and over the summer with Black man has really given me reason or given me the idea that, you know, it’s good now, Kevin, to be forthright, honest and open about your experience as a Black man. I also want to say that my experience as a Black man has been good. And then there have been challenges. I don’t want to give the impression that that I’m beat or that I’m just at my wit’s end because I’m not. I am very hopeful. I do believe that things are going to change.

And then I go back to what I said earlier. Right. Which is kind of bringing it full circle to your question about what has the experience been like for me as a Black man in L and D. I would dare to say that overwhelmingly the community has embraced me because of what I have to offer and because of what I have to say, I sense that, I feel that, I believe that, I get that.

And so every now and then there is that feeling of being treated as an anomaly, right. Or as being treated as other than, or uniquely exceptional. I do get that every now and then, but generally speaking overall, I would say that I am embraced by our community because of what I do because of how I do it. And because of the appreciation that our community has, of me being able to help us figure out how to measure results for training and learning. Does that make sense?

Carolyn Kiel: It does. Yeah. It seems like the topics that you’ve touched on in terms of your experience as a Black man in L and D it’s sort of the whole picture. So it’s all of the good with some of the, some might say microaggressions and the way you get some of that. But then if you’re in a car and you get pulled over, even you’re just outside, not in a corporate or a work setting, people may not know you as you know, Kevin, the L and D detective. You’re a Black man. And you’re, I think, what you’re maybe saying is that that’s also part of your experience, all of those things that happen out in the world.

Kevin M. Yates: My goodness. You really hit the nail on the head there. And so, you know, for the times where I have been pulled over, the only thing that that person knew is that I was Black. That’s all that he knew, right. But to your point, what he didn’t know for example is that I love my mom. I love my dad. I lived in a nice home. I live in the suburbs. I have traveled the world. I have an advanced degree. I’ve worked with incredible organizations. I’ve written an e-book. So it’s all those things that kind of make up who I am. You know, not to mention that, you know, I believe I’m a giving person. I believe I’m a loving person. I like to laugh. I love white wine. I really enjoy traveling and I love seafood. So the essence of what I’m saying is that in addition to being a Black man, I am all of those things, but when I am pulled over, have been pulled over rather, that is all they saw was the color of my skin. And I think that what some people might not be privy to, or maybe are more privy to because we’re having more open conversations and dialogue here in this year 2020 is that there really is an unspoken protocol that I follow when I literally leave the front door of my home, because I know that when I go out into the world, that more often than not, the first thing that people are going to see is the fact that I am a Black man. They’re not going to see all those other things that I use to describe who I am with you. Right. So there are certain processes and tactics that I have to follow when I leave my home, because I know that not following those procedures and not taking those extra precautions could very well mean my life.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I think it’s something that a lot of people don’t realize or, or just aren’t aware of, or don’t really think about is that those are very real things that you and many others have to do. Would you be willing to share some of those protocols and tactics that you use?

Kevin M. Yates: Absolutely. And so, you know, for example, depending upon where I am, you know, again, it’s another one of those situations where I have to use my best language, right. Because if I don’t, I might be perceived as someone that is threatening or something even worse. Right? So I am very cognizant of the language that I use depending upon where I am.

Right. Which means that I’m not able to just kind of relax, you know, as I move and go out in the world, so to speak, I have to be very aware of how I speak. I have to be very aware of what I say. And not only that, of how I say it, because depending upon tone and inflection, the way in which I say something might be perceived as threatening.

So I have to be very careful about that as well. I have been in situations where I’ve been in an elevator and was the only Black man in that elevator. And maybe there was one or two other people who were not the same color as I am. And you could literally feel the tension or maybe even I would go so far as to say the fear, and that’s very hurtful and it’s hurtful because what that person in that elevator doesn’t know again, are all those things that I described to you about who I am, you know, in addition to being Black, there are all those other things that make up who I am as well. You know, again, going back to your question, what are some of the things that I have to do? So if and when I am pulled over, It’s always hands at 10 and two. It’s always, yes, sir. It’s not reaching for my vehicle registration or insurance card out of the glove compartment unless I am told to do so, because if I do that, it may be perceived as me reaching for a weapon.

And again, that could very well mean my life. It is me kind of, how do you say… cowering? If that’s such, I don’t know. I don’t know if I like that word cowering, but in those instances where I am pulled over, it’s it’s having to reduce myself so as not to appear threatening, and again, it’s going back to using that best language so that maybe he or she will know that, you know, I am educated and you know, that I I’m, I’m not threatening. And you know, I’m not who they may believe I am. You know, those are just a few examples of the things that I have to do that are part of that protocol for those unspoken processes that many, many, many, many Black men are following. And then there are more processes, but those are just some examples.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that’s really enlightening for a lot of people who maybe just haven’t had that experience or just haven’t stopped to think about how these experiences are different for other people based on race.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. Yeah. And what’s really interesting because as I kind of think about just a few of the things that I’ve shared with you, I’m reflecting on a conversation I had with a coworker over the summer who really cared and wanted to know legitimately was curious about my experience. And I shared with her what some of those steps are that I have to take when I leave the door. And she said, you know, Kevin, that sounds really exhausting. And I thought to myself, you know, it is.

Carolyn Kiel: It takes up part of your mental process, even if it’s something that you’re used to doing and probably have done hundreds and hundreds of times, it’s, it’s taken up your brain space.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And what I said to her is that it’s kind of like my left arm. Right. I just carry my left arm with me wherever I go. And so I’m used to my left arm. And so similarly I am used to some of those hoops that I have to jump through just for extra precaution. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean this year 2020 has had so many challenges and one of them obviously is the movements around racial justice and social justice and just the increased attention towards police violence and race related violence. Has your experience been significantly different this year? I know when we were chatting in our pre-call you mentioned your mom’s reaction to this year versus, you know, kind of how she talked with you earlier. So just curious to know how things have been different or not different this year.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah, it’s been different good and different disheartening. If that makes sense. It’s just been different all over the map, so to speak and yeah. And I’m glad that you brought that up because I think that it’s an important point in terms of the conversation that my mom had with me. And so when I was growing up as a teenager, as a young man, and my mom was a single parent she never had any conversations to say, well, you know, Kevin when you go out into the world, don’t do this. Don’t do that. Watch out for this, watch out for that, you know, relative to things that I would have to do, because she had a young Black man or a teenage Black boy, or, you know, a young, you know, again, a young Black man that, you know, that was growing up in her house. So she didn’t give me those protocol. The one, the protocols that I described to you are what I just had to figure out. Right. And you know what I figured out through my own experiences and through the experiences of friends. But my, my mother never spoke language of things that I could not do. My mother was so focused on language that was affirming and she spoke language of, you can do whatever you want to do in the world.

You can be as great as you want to be. There is nothing that will hold you back, live your life to the fullest, do all that you can do, go everywhere that you want to go. That that was her philosophy. So fast forward to 2020. My mom is 84 years old and I am 54. So for the first time in her life, because of the incidents that happened over the summer here in the U S with, you know, some of the Black men who were killed at the hands of police officers, for the very first time in her life, she started to call me and say, Kevin, please be careful when you go out.

Kevin, if someone bumps your vehicle, just stay inside. Kevin, if you’re pulled over, do this. And what was just very sad to me was because of what she saw in terms of what was happening, she was fearful for the life of her son. Even though I am an adult man, she was more aware more in tune, more in touch and more concerned than she had ever been in her life.

And so I can’t imagine what that must’ve felt like for her to say, my goodness, my son’s life could be taken away at any moment, simply because he is walking in the world Black, and that was hurtful for me. It was hurtful to know that she was afraid for my life that way, and that she was afraid for my life for that reason.

And so that was very difficult. And every now and then she still does that. And so that is unfortunate that at this point in her life, that she has to be worried and concerned about that. So you know, that is difficult. But I’ll also say, I want to balance that out with what I believe are some good stories, and what I believe are good stories is that in the workplace with people with whom I work, colleagues, they were very curious about what racial injustice meant for me and my life experience.

And they were having those conversations with me. Not gratuitously, but just because they were curious because they wanted the perspective and because they didn’t know. And so I was more than happy to have that conversation because the only way that you’ll know is if you ask, right, and if you have the conversation and just as I have zero idea about what it’s like to go out into the world and not have to follow those protocols that I talked about. I have no idea what that’s like, because I have to do that. Just as I don’t know what that is, they don’t know what it is to live Black. Right. And so, because I knew that the questions were coming from a legitimate place of wanting to have perspective of wanting to know so that they could potentially change something or so that they would have greater awareness and empathy and perspective, I was happy to have that conversation to have that talk. And what I’ll also share with you is prior to 2020, I’ve avoided that conversation. And I’ve avoided that talk because what sits on the other side of those things is quite honestly, embarrassment and humiliation and hurt and pain and anger. And those are emotions that you really don’t want to revisit.

Right. But I said, you know what, it’s time for me to share. It’s time for me to be open it’s time for me to be authentic. It’s time for me to be personal and it’s time for me to educate. And so I consider that to be a good thing. And so that’s why I said, I want to balance it with some of the difficult things with the good things.

And I think the fact that that dialogue is now open. And that I believe many Black men are having those kinds of conversations. Those who were open to it, we are now able to articulate in a way that helps with understanding our experience. And I think that people are beginning to ask more questions now.

And I think that, you know, again, for those that are willing to have the conversation, I think that’s a good thing because a lot of times, we just don’t know. We don’t know what each other’s experience is. And I think that understanding and acceptance and peace comes through understanding and it comes through conversations.

So for me, that’s the good that I see coming out of some of the challenges that we’ve had here. Does that make sense?

Carolyn Kiel: It does. Absolutely. And I’ve seen that in my own workplace and others where there’s just more of a curiosity or an openness for people of color and Black men and women to share their true life, real experiences. Where before 2020, I think almost anyone would tell you in almost any workplace that really wasn’t talked about at work.

Some places you don’t even talk about your personal life, much less topics that potentially could make people uncomfortable. But 2020 has really opened up that dialogue and said, no, we really need to hear these stories because otherwise, how can we really truly understand, attempt to understand what somebody else has experience is that is different from us? So it’s it’s important.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah, I think it is important. And, you know, as you said, I do a lot of speaking. Before 2020, thanks a lot, COVID, I was speaking all over the world and had a chance to interact with people and engage with people face-to-face. And the feedback I consistently get as a speaker is, you know, things like great energy, enthusiastic, very personable very lively on stage, very engaging, all those kinds of things.

And one of the reasons that I’m happy to share my story with you today is because while I am all of those things, you know, there are times where I’m carrying something else with me, right. Where I’m carrying something very heavy with me, but because of my commitment to be the best that I can be when I am amongst my L and D peers and am speaking and sharing information and trying to inspire and motivate for the purpose of changing hearts and minds about measuring impact.

You know, there have been times where it was sitting on the other side of that is something a little heavy. Right. And so I think that as I begin to share and be even more transparent and truthful with all of who I am, I think that that’s the way for people to get to know me better and to really appreciate who I am and most important to remove any ideas as we started the conversation, remove any ideas that you know, that I’m a unicorn or that I’m an anomaly because I’m not.

Carolyn Kiel: Important stuff. So. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you are a speaker who speaks to audiences all around the world. Are these types of stories something that you’re incorporating or thinking of incorporating somehow into the type of speaking that you do, or is it more just sort of within your smaller professional circle in terms of sharing these types of experiences?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. Yeah. That’s an awesome question. And I believe that it’s more so what I am sharing in conversations like this, in conversations that aren’t necessarily focused on measurement and analytics, because this, this isn’t really connected to that. However, when there’s opportunity. And as I said, if you ask the question, I will answer it, but just in terms of me being on the world stage, you know, I’m going to be there to do what I was asked to do. And when I’m asked to speak, I’m asked to talk about how I measure the impact of training and learning. And that’s what I’m focused on and that’s what’s right. And that is what is appropriate.

So when there’s opportunity for me to have these kinds of conversations, like the one I’m having today, or when I write on my own, when I write a blog, I want to share a little bit of this. Then I will do that. Right. When I am asked to speak to it, I will do that. But just in terms of appropriateness, you know, certainly again, if I am asked to talk about a specific topic around measurement, data analytics, fact-finding evidence and all that, then that’s what I’m going to stick to.

Yeah, but hopefully those who are asking me to speak and who are kind of checking me out, right, or investigating me, they’re going to discover this. They’re going to discover the conversation that we’re having right now because it’s discoverable. It’s probably, you know, it’s going to be on my website and then they’re going to go to your website.

They’re going to be able to listen to it. So if you Google me, you’re going to find me, and I am so okay with that, because I’m just totally okay with people getting the whole package. Right. People getting Kevin M. Yates in his entirety, when I am asked to speak and share and talk about the things that I talk about when I’m focused on measurement data and analytics for L and D. Does that answer your question?

Carolyn Kiel: It does, you know, you have a message, you tailor it and present it according to the audience and what they’re expecting and asking for, but having all of that out there, I think it’s really powerful and empowering, I guess I would say in a lot of ways.

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. And you know what, Carolyn, I also know that there are professionals and speakers who wouldn’t dare touch the topics that I’ve talked about today.

I know that because there may be a concern about how it deviates from their brand or how it creates perceptions that they would otherwise not want out in the world, but where I consider myself to be very fortunate is to have reached a point in my career where I am comfortable being me where I am so comfortable just being who I am and comfortable inviting people in.

Right. And just to be transparent, I haven’t always been at this place, you know, maybe even last year or maybe even two years ago, I probably would have been so protective of this brand that I have just worked so hard to build that I would not want to diminish it or compromising it by talking about anything other than what my brand is.

Right. And my brand is measurement data and analytics and all of that. But again, Because of where I am in my career because of where I am in my life. I don’t even consider it a risk. I just consider it a continuation of my brand. And so in addition to all those other things that are part of my brand, and I just talked about, I also want to build a brand of authenticity and again, I believe in being authentic because living in duality is too much work.

So that’s why I am so totally okay with having this conversation that we’re having today. Because I also believe that, you know, when I am asked to speak at conferences and such that people will really know who they’re getting and they’ll know what they’re getting. Right. So they’ll know all of the expertise that I bring, the experience and the expertise and my subject matter.

But then they’ll also know who the man is that they’re bringing in.

Carolyn Kiel: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I absolutely appreciate you coming on my show and sharing your story and your many stories that you shared over the course of now two episodes of my podcast. And I’m very grateful to be among the audience that gets to hear Kevin bringing his whole self into work and into the world. So I appreciate that. Is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know, or maybe anything that they can either help or support you with?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah. I think that what’s important for our listeners to know is that everyone has a story. And I think that we should feel comfortable sharing our stories. I think that what we bring into the world is our experience and our experiences both professional and personal can help others. And so I would say to the extent that you are comfortable doing so, and in addition to bringing your professional self to the world, I say, bring your personal self to the world as well. Because again, the stories that you share, the experiences that you’ve had, can very well help someone else. And I’ll say it again, because I believe it’s worth repeating by doing that by bringing your personal and your professional self that you are living in authenticity. Because again, living in duality is just way too much work.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Kevin, thanks again for being on my podcast. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the kind of work that you do?

Kevin M. Yates: Yeah, here’s the fun part, right? So certainly go to my website and check me out. I’m up to something good as I like to say, I got some really good stuff going on on my website. So go to KevinMYates.com. And also when you go there, you can download a free copy. That’s F R E E $0 and no cents. You can download a free copy of my new ebook, the L and D detective kit for solving impact mysteries. And then certainly you can follow me on social media. I’m on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. So you can, you can check me out there as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. Fantastic. Yeah. Thanks again, Kevin. I really enjoyed our conversation. I’m truly grateful that you, again, chose my show to share your stories. And I’m excited to continue to see all the great work that you do in the world of L and D.

Kevin M. Yates: This has been an awesome uplifting conversation. It’s good to talk to you again.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help us spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend. Give us a shoutout on your social media or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of our episodes on our website and sign up for our free newsletter at www.beyond6seconds.com. Until next time.