Episode 210: Finding acceptance as an autistic biracial gay woman – with Grace Liu

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn Kiel: On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Grace Liu. Grace is an autistic author, blogger, speaker, and pet portrait artist based in the Midlands of England. Grace’s book, “Approaching Autistic Adulthood, The Road Less Traveled,” was published in October 2021. It focuses on getting to grips with independent adult life as an autistic person, and covers areas such as education, work, and understanding your identity as an autistic person. Grace has delivered multiple talks about autism and diversity, most recently at the Birmingham National Exhibition Center, or NEC, for the annual Health and Wellbeing at Work Conference, and online for Neurodiversity Celebration Week.

She’s a keen advocate for issues surrounding autism, neurodiversity, diversity and inclusion, and regularly addresses these issues on her blog. Grace is also a pet portrait artist, and has received many commissions for her drawings, especially over the past year. She’s a dedicated owner to four cats, having had an autistic interest in cats from a very young age.

Grace, welcome to the podcast.

Grace Liu: Thank you. Yes. It’s lovely to be here. Lovely to meet you.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Great to meet you too. So I’d love to learn more about your personal story. When did your family realize that you’re autistic?

Grace Liu: I’m going to have to go back a bit and explain about being born in Taiwan first, if that’s okay.

So yeah, I was born in Taiwan. My mum is English, but she was living and working in Taiwan at the time. And that’s where she met my dad. And then we ended up moving back to the UK when she and my dad split up. I was, I’d just turned four at the time and my my sister hadn’t yet been born. My mum was six months pregnant. So that was a challenge. And we moved to a village called Ham, which is sort of in the West country of England, quite far from here. And, I started at primary school, the equivalent of elementary school in the US.

And I suppose I was already different in that I was, I was half Chinese and had just, just moved to another country. So, I think the fact I was a bit socially awkward and withdrawn was kind of put down to that, initially. Yeah my mum has a lot of funny anecdotes, actually, about what a weird child I was at that age. Like, for example, when we were still in Taiwan and at kindergarten we were asked to have a go at making clay pots. And at the end of the day, my kindergarten teacher said to my mum, “Oh, Mrs. Liu, Grace is no good at making clay pots.” So my mum asked me later, “what did you make at kindergarten today, Grace?” And I replied, “penguin feet!” as if it was the most obvious thing in the world.

Yeah, and then in the UK, there was one lesson where we were learning all about African cultures and, we all had a go at making our own African bag. And for some reason, I drew a snowman on mine. Don’t ask me why.

But yeah, I was a strange child. I didn’t like the same things that other kids liked. My headteacher blamed it on my mum being a bad single parent, because she was a single parent on benefits, and they get all the hate, don’t they? They even had me checked by a school nurse for bruises in case I was being abused, which was really upsetting for my mum. And I was asked to, basically strip down so they could check me. To which I responded, “But it’s rude to show people your knickers!” Knickers being underpants.

So, yeah, I was different, but the school was steadfastly ignoring it. I think, I think possibly racism maybe came into play, because it was a very white, very rural middle class English village without very much diversity.

So then my mum married my stepdad and we moved in with him. I was eight at the time. And within weeks, I was getting noticed for my autism related struggles. We, we had one member of staff looking at a child who was already diagnosed and she immediately noticed me. And to cut a very long story short, that’s how I was diagnosed.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, so yeah, that’s so interesting that you had that big change in your life with your stepdad, moving in that, that was sort of coincided with the realization that you might be autistic and actually are autistic.

Grace Liu: Yeah, well, my mum was looking into it for a while. My first primary school didn’t want anything to do with it. They looked down on her and I think they didn’t quite take me seriously because I wasn’t fully English. But the new primary school I moved to in a completely different town was, well, it was completely different. They were much more, much more on it, much, much more willing to collaborate.

Carolyn Kiel: So, was it a surprise to your, your parents or your family that you wound up getting an autism diagnosis?

Grace Liu: I don’t think so at this stage. I think it was something that was kind of on the cards before. To be honest, I wasn’t very aware of it. I was just a small child.

And then there’s the story of when they actually told me of my diagnosis. And, I can’t remember exactly what happened, but they basically said something like, “Okay, so you’re on the autistic spectrum, which means you’re made a little bit differently to other kids.” My first question, for some reason, was, “Oh, can I have a piece of cheese?”

Yeah Yeah, I don’t think it changed much for me socially, but it did mean that I was entitled to a support worker in lessons. So I wasn’t falling behind academically nearly as much, so that made a big difference to me.

Carolyn Kiel: So what was life like for you after you got your diagnosis? Like, did things change significantly at school or with friends?

Grace Liu: Well, as I said, I got support in lessons. Socially, not really. I was, I was aware that I was different, but it’s not, I didn’t really have much self awareness. I didn’t really understand the implications of it. I just knew that I was happy in my own little world, pursuing whatever weird interests I had in the time.

I did have friendships, but I mostly preferred to play on my own. I very quickly kind of lost focus in groups. It got harder when I got to secondary school or high school or whatever you want to call it because it was a much bigger school, kids were much meaner and trying to get to the top of the social hierarchy, so that, that made things a lot more challenging. Yeah, that was, that was really difficult.

I think one struggle I had particularly was forming and maintaining friendships, because I’d learned the social rules. I’d learned how to kind of mask, if you like, and kind of act like other kids, but then I didn’t quite understand why I couldn’t keep it up for very long. I didn’t understand the concept of burnout or, or just overload. You know, I was, I was sort of starting these friendships and saying all the right things, and then they were just fizzling out, and I just didn’t know how to deal with that. So that, that caused a lot of anxiety and a lot of social isolation. And I also got a lot of harassment from boys because of my race, which wasn’t much fun.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And, and things are so different socially in primary school versus secondary school. Not that they’re easier in primary school, but in secondary school you get that extra layer of, like, people kind of acting in strange ways or not saying what they mean, or there’s, like, all these, like, hidden social agendas that you have to learn.

It’s, I don’t know.

Grace Liu: Yeah, like, everyone’s changing and you can’t quite keep up with it, and to make things even more complicated, you know, you’re changing in yourself, having to go through puberty and mood swings and and kind of having to dress differently and wash differently and so on, and then deal with more complicated lessons, more complicated social rules.

Yeah, I don’t miss it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, no, that was definitely a tough time of life. Absolutely. Wow.

And you write about some of the experiences that you’ve had at work, like once you graduated and went to the working world. What was your experience working at different jobs, like being autistic and being mixed race in the UK?

Grace Liu: Well, I’m quite lucky in that my race hasn’t been too much of an issue at work, or at least not what I’ve noticed. Autism has definitely been an issue in workplaces. Yeah, I’ve had quite a few negative experiences with work and I’ll, I’ll have to try and be fairly discreet about this.

I’ve had a lot of issues mainly with communication and managers. I can remember one job where, where my manager would say something like, “oh there’s no right or wrong way of doing xyz,” and then I’d do it and I’d somehow end up doing it the wrong way. Because what he actually meant was, there are some right ways and some wrong ways and you’ve just got to figure out which one. So that, that sort of thing.

And also if I would just ask a simple yes or no question, I’d be wanting a simple yes or no answer. And then they would just say, I don’t know, they’d just go all the way back to the beginning of the instructions and load me with extra information. I’d be like, “whoa, whoa. I don’t want to know all that. I don’t understand. You’re not answering my question.”

I feel like when it comes to work, people talk a lot about autism and sensory overload and navigating the, the social politics. And, and, you know, those are, those are all quite significant struggles. But I think the main issues for me have been communication and picking up knowledge in the same way as other people.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes needing more time for processing and like you were saying, just getting way too much information and then sort of being expected to process it immediately and have like some sort of appropriate reaction is yeah, that’s, that’s tough, especially in work life. Yeah.

Grace Liu: Yeah. I’ve also had some jobs where I’ve really struggled to pick up knowledge in the same way as other people. So, you know, I can retain knowledge like a sponge if A, it’s something I’m naturally very interested in, or B, it’s something that I’m specifically pursuing. And because I was doing a lot of blogging, naturally I was learning about all the stuff I was blogging about for the company, but then I wasn’t picking up on sort of background knowledge of how other aspects of the company worked, and how, you know, different roles that weren’t directly related to mine worked.

And that, that was, that, that caused the a lot of tension between me and the people in charge. I was like, well, if no one’s ever sat me down and told me about this stuff and talked me through it regularly, and it’s not, it’s not directly linked to my job role, how am I supposed to know it?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, exactly. You’re just expected to pick things up somehow. It doesn’t always work out that way. Yeah.

Grace Liu: Yeah. It’s frustrating.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, you blog about a lot of these topics and, and much more on, on the blog that you’ve had and you’ve been blogging for, for a long time. It’s been like more than 10 years.

Grace Liu: It has!

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. That’s amazing in the online content creation world. So what inspired you to start blogging about your life as an autistic person?

Grace Liu: To be honest, I mostly just wanted to hone my writing skills and I knew that blogging was a way to do it. I’ve read other people’s blogs. And I thought, well, I want to get into writing. I want to be a writer. This is apparently how, how I do it.

And then one year I got, a book called “Blogging for Dummies” for Christmas, I think from one of my stepbrothers. And so of course, yeah, naturally I had to give it a go.

I wasn’t actually planning to write about autism right away. I mostly just wanted to try writing about. anything of interest because, one of my, one of my sisters in law at the time had a blog and she just wrote about things that were interesting to her or things that happened to her, so that was the approach I took at first. But then I began to realize, actually, You know, I’ve got a lot I want to say about autism, and my experiences, and this is a really good platform for it.

So I think it was probably about, maybe a couple of years into blogging that I started, kind of, making it an autism blog. I mean, autism isn’t the only thing I write about, I do still write about other, other areas of interest or, or key things that happened to me. But it, it just sort of, it just sort of became an autism blog, if that makes sense.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. How do you pick what topics to write about on there?

Grace Liu: It’s, it’s just whatever’s on my heart. I, I do, I do try and keep a list of blog topics I want to write about so I don’t forget them. You know, I’ll write it down either in my journal or on my computer, whichever I’ve got to hand. And there have been quite a few times in my life where I’ve planned ahead which blog I’m going to write about on which date. I haven’t been as on top of it lately, but that’s that’s something I’m working on.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you’ve written about so many different aspects of your life on there. And, and one of them is that you’ve written about your experience as a biracial person living in the UK. And I know you talked a little bit about growing up, some of the racism and other sort of biases that you faced as a child growing up there. What kinds of challenges or stereotypes have you faced that you’ve either written about or just experienced?

Grace Liu: Well, at school I had a lot of boys who would be catcalling me but doing it in a racist way at the same time. So, hitting on me in the same way that teenage boys tend to do to girls, but also saying things like, I want to have your Chinese babies, or calling me a racial slur to get a laugh out of their mates, out of their friends. And, you know, one boy who was actively hostile to me and didn’t, didn’t want me anywhere near him because of my race.

Since then I, I haven’t, I haven’t experienced too many race related issues. But I have had over the years a lot of experiences where people have come up to me and said, “Ni hao,” to me. Because they see me and they assume I can’t speak English. Or, sometimes people will just shout it for a laugh in, in public. Or they’ll shout things like, “Great Wall of China!” or “Konnichiwa” at me. So yeah, just dealing with other people’s stupidity and well meaning assumptions. I, I had one person in the streets once walk up to me and offer me Chinese literature, for some reason.

Yeah, I often feel like with race, I sort of feel partly, partly marginalized, but partly privileged as well, because although I’m not white, I’m, I’m light skinned, so I don’t have to go through all the grief that people who are Black or fully Asian often seem to, to go through. But now I don’t really fully identify with fully white people because they’ve never had to deal with any assumptions or stereotypes or hostility. So it sort of feels like I’m treading in two worlds with it, really.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And since you moved from Taiwan at such a young age and have, you know, spent most of your life, with your, your mother and your stepfather who are white, is that, relating yourself to a culture, like, do you relate to Chinese culture? Is it part of your identity or how does that interface?

Grace Liu: Yeah, a little bit. I mean, to be honest, I think it, I think my mum feels like at least as much as I do, you know, she’s fully white, fully British, but she spent quite a number of years in Taiwan. So she got very acclimatized to the culture and the cooking. So we’re very into Chinese and Taiwanese cooking in my family. I’ve always had a strong taste for spicy food. You know a lot of autistic people say that they, they need things to be plain. They need things to taste the same. I’m, I’m very much the opposite. I’m quite sensory seeking with flavor. I don’t know if it’s just because of my autism or just because of my background. Yeah, we like Chinese food. We like lots of other foods as well.

We don’t really celebrate Chinese New Year, but we generally at least acknowledge when it is, if that makes sense. I don’t speak Chinese. I used to when I was very little, but I, I do know basic words and phrases that I try and try and remember, and I can count in Chinese.

Carolyn Kiel: And you’ve written about that on your blog and your experiences with that part of your identity. And you’ve also written on your blog about your experience coming out as, as being gay. So I’d love to learn more about that and, like, how did you decide to come out about being gay and what was that experience like?

Grace Liu: Yeah, so that’s, that’s quite a tricky one. It was, I think it was complicated by the fact that I was really struggling to accept being autistic as a teenager, because I was going through all these social struggles and all these struggles in lessons. And I just, I hated being different. And at the same time, I was having these feelings for girls and, you know, I was trying to deny it, trying to tell myself it was just a phase, trying to hide it, and then kind of really hating myself.

And I realized, oh, blimey, I’m different in more ways than one. More ways than two, even. And I just, I just couldn’t accept the fact that I was going to, to, going to grow up struggling to make friends, struggling to retain information. And also being attracted to people who mostly couldn’t be attracted to me because they’re straight. And having to deal with people thinking I’m, I’m perverted or sinful or dirty.

And it doesn’t help that when I did start to make friends, it was with people at church. I don’t want to make this sound too negative, because in many ways it was really great, because it was through that friendship group that I became more open about my autism. They’re, you know, they were very accepting about that and I started actually making proper friends there, but there were people who were very openly homophobic. They complained about the gay lifestyle and the gay agenda, and saying we shouldn’t be accepting gay people, whilst also putting as much pressure as possible on us to be our, our authentic selves and be completely open and not have secrets. So that’s something I’ve always, always kind of struggled with really when it comes to church and Christianity.

Carolyn Kiel: I don’t know if you can compare, but did you find it like easier or harder coming out as being gay versus like telling people that you’re autistic?

Grace Liu: I would say harder. I realize it wouldn’t be that way for everyone, but I, I found it harder, I suppose, because I was already struggling to come out about being autistic. Then when I did, it was to people who might not have been accepting of my sexuality.

I think I must have first come out to my parents. I remember I was just about to go back to uni for my third year, so this would have been kind of mid 2000s at some point, and they were absolutely fine, they were really great about it, really accepting. And I, I, I remember I really wanted to kind of talk to someone else about it and not just keep it as a family secret. And I really wanted to tell my best friend about it. So, I came out to her about a year later. It was over dinner actually. We, we were meeting up as we so often did, and I was, you know, it was just one of our normal meetups. I was trying to figure out, okay, I really want to talk to her about this, but I don’t know how to do it. And so I kind of, I kind of just blurted it out to her and she was, she was so lovely about it and so accepting. It was one of the things we kind of bonded over and sort of cemented our, our friendship. You know, she asked, asked me about my experiences and kept telling me how brave I was and saying, thank you for trusting her. So I’m really lucky to have her in my life. She, she laughed at me a little bit because we were having ice cream sundaes for dessert. And I was so nervous that I didn’t even notice that I had completely crumbled my wafer to dust into my ice cream.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, really? Well, yeah, that’s great that your, your parents and your, your best friend have been so supportive. That’s just so important.

Grace Liu: Yeah. I only, I only publicly came out in 2021 because I, I suppose because I was becoming such a strong advocate for autism and I was talking about my experiences with autism and my sexuality, not, no, not my sexuality at this stage, my race, and being born in Taiwan, and so on. And I really just wanted to be able to talk about my sexuality as freely as I talked about everything else, but I didn’t, I didn’t quite feel brave enough. But I was writing my book at the time, and I thought, you know, I really want to be able to reach out to other autistic people through my book who might be experiencing this. So I wrote about it in my book, but I also wrote about it in my blog at that time, and that was when I officially, publicly came out.

I wrote this blog post, posted it on the internet and it actually went much better than I thought it would. Because there are lots of people who could have taken it really badly who either took it well or just didn’t respond at all, and actually it turned out okay. And again, I realize I’m a lot luckier than a lot of LGBT people here, so that’s something I try and hold on to. Yeah, that’s my coming out story.

Carolyn Kiel: Has it been a struggle for you to accept being both autistic and gay?

Grace Liu: Yeah, I mean it certainly was at secondary school and actually even, even in early adult life. It was hard because you know, I was going, I was going to church, I had all, all these church contacts. But it was, it was at a church that kind of had, well, I wouldn’t say it was openly homophobic, but there were people there who were, and, you know, people just turned a blind eye to it, and yet, there were so many talks saying, saying how important it is to be open and be vulnerable. And I have real issues with people saying that. Because it’s something that’s so easily thrown around, but it’s not something that people actually put into practice. They just, they don’t think about why it might not be a safe space for people to be completely open.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of discourse in, especially like the, the corporate world and the working world about like, bringing your full self to work and being your authentic self at work. Which I, you know, I, I think it’s a great like idealistic concept, but, you know, depending on the individual, there are serious challenges. And you really need to have an environment that’s truly safe and accepting to make it feasible for anybody to, to be able to do that. Yeah.

Grace Liu: Yeah. It’s something I have a real issue with, both as a lesbian and as an autistic person. Because as a lot of neurodivergent people will have experienced, you know, I’ve, I’ve dealt with people who will supposedly be autism friendly, but then they don’t like it if, you know, I respond to things in the way they don’t expect, or I don’t make full eye contact, or I’m interested in different things to them, or I struggle with different things to them.

So yeah, it’s like, I’m allowed to exist, but I’m not allowed to be myself, even though I’m supposed to be myself.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. Yeah. People don’t make that mental connection in their heads. It’s like, what it means to accept someone is, you know, not just to say that you do, but to really put that into practice and, and think about what that really means for people.

Grace Liu: Yeah, definitely.

Carolyn Kiel: And so, you know, you mentioned your book, and I’d love to learn more about how that came about. So, you published a book a couple years ago. How did you get the opportunity to write a book?

Grace Liu: Well, the short answer is lockdown. I’ve wanted to write a book for ages, really. It’s something that I’d always said, Oh, I’m going to do that one day, but it didn’t really happen.

And then I was, I was thinking more and more to myself. Okay, how can I make this happen? How can I make the time for it? And then COVID struck and I was like, okay, well, that wasn’t the answer to my prayers I was expecting, but hey, we’ll go with it and use that as the opportunity to write my book.

Carolyn Kiel: What is your book about?

Grace Liu: So it’s basically about getting to grips with independent adult life as an autistic person.

I basically cover explaining autism and dealing with people’s reactions and things like overload and friendships and relationships. And then I go into things like education and work, and kind of explaining autism to employers, and common work related struggles, and dealing with disrespectful behavior from other people. So yeah, it’s sort of partly just general autism information, but with an angle towards dealing with, typical adult life scenarios.

Carolyn Kiel: I think that’s important because, you know, I hope this is changing, but I think there’s still a lot of people thinking that autism is a child’s condition and that somehow adults either grow out of it or autistic adults just kind of disappear after they turn 18 or 21.

So, there certainly need to be more books about, you know, how to sort of approach adulthood as an autistic person. And, you know, whether you’re in the working world or just trying to navigate your life as an adult, I think it’s really important for people to to be able to read about and understand, especially from other autistic people who have had those experiences.

Grace Liu: Yeah, I think there’s also a lot of narrative on how autistic people present, you know? Outward behaviours, what autism may look like, and not nearly as much focus on what autistic people actually experience. I mean, there’s a lot more of it now than there was not that many years ago, but there’s still, still a lot to be done, still a work in progress.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. And you’re also a public speaker. You’ve done several engagements, you know, recently within the last couple months. Did your book help you find opportunities like public speaking or other types of opportunities to talk about your own advocacy?

Grace Liu: Yeah. So, with the, with the NEC event recently at Birmingham, I first got contacted about that because, a colleague of my stepdad had read my book and really liked it and promoted it on LinkedIn. And then, I think the, the guy who was, who, who got in touch with me about this event must have, must have read about this from her because he said, he emailed me and said, oh, I heard about, heard about your book from, from my friend and contact. I’d really like you to speak at this event.

Yeah, that was kind of, that was really exciting. And it was a, it was a really big event actually. The talk itself was fairly small, but it was one of those events where basically loads of stalls, loads of things going on and then loads of different talks that, that you can attend if you want to. And I got a really full room and lots of people laughed at my talk, at the right places, not in a bad way. And, and I had loads of questions at the end. Loads of people really, really interested. Yeah, it was just a really exciting thing to be a part of. I brought six copies of my book with me and they all sold out and it was just a really valuable networking opportunity.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really cool. So yeah, so you’ve been able to do events that it sounds like, you know, were in person, also virtual. Because Neurodiversity Celebration Week, I think is like a, like a week long, they have a lot of virtual sessions that anyone can tune in.

Grace Liu: Yeah, I was on, I was on a panel for that and we were talking about experiences with being autistic and under the LGBT umbrella. And I hadn’t realized just how big an event that was. I think it had, well, I think the audience is certainly well into the hundreds and there are people from all over the world listening, not just in the UK, you know, there are people in the US, people all over Europe, people in all sorts of different parts of the UK. So, yeah, that was, that was, that was quite a big one.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s really cool. Yeah. You’ve had a lot of opportunities to really talk about your own experience and kind of share your advocacy. You know, you’ve got your book, you’ve got your, your blog, which is amazing. Cause I, I appreciate, I’ve been podcasting since 2018 and I feel like that’s a long time. So you having had a blog for over 10 years, just sort of looking back is just such an amazing, like richness of stories. And I’d say if, you know, if anyone’s thinking of creating content online and sharing it, definitely just start because, you know, you’ll look back in a few years and just be amazed at what you’ve learned and what you’ve grown from and what opportunities you can get from that.

Grace Liu: Absolutely. Well, once I really get into doing something, I will, I will stick at it for a long time. So I think that’s what happened with this blog. And, you know, there were just so many things I wanted to write about. So many things I wanted people to understand. And also so many new things that I picked up and learned I wanted to write about and so on. So yeah, it’s, it’s kept going for a long time.

Carolyn Kiel: Absolutely. So like, where can people go if they want to find out about the kind of work you’re doing, like your writing, your book, even your custom hand drawn pet portraits. Because I know that’s a big thing that you’ve been doing lately as well.

Grace Liu: So I have a website called Artistic Autistic. So the URL is artistic-autistic.co.uk and that’s got details of my book, my blog, my pet portraits. My blog, if you just want to go straight, straight for it without looking at the website is Unwritten Grace Writing. That’s unwrittengrace.wordpress.com. My book, Approaching Autistic Adulthood, The Road Less Travelled, can be found on Amazon. Also for any UK listeners, via any UK bookshop, you can order in. You know, I’ve seen it in a local bookshop before, which was a really surreal experience to be honest, but really exciting, just seeing it casually sitting there on the shelf.

Yeah, and my pet portraits can be found on my website. I also have them on Instagram and on Facebook. It’s just Grace Liu Pet Portraits.

Carolyn Kiel: And I’ll put those links in the show notes so people can find you that way as well.

Grace, thank you so much for sharing so much of your experience and all of the great work that you’re doing. Is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Grace Liu: I think more generally, I always say to people, promote what autistic people are saying about their experiences, listen to autistic voices. The same goes for all minority categories as well, so LGBT people, and people in racial minorities. It’s not woke. It’s not political. These things are important and they’re people’s realities. So we really need to be listening and understanding.

I think with me specifically, yeah, definitely have a read of my book, my blog. I’d be very happy to get in touch, answer any questions. Yeah, I, I think that’s, that’s basically it really.

Carolyn Kiel: Very fabulous. Yeah. Well, Grace, thank you. It’s been great talking with you and thank you so much for being on my podcast.

Grace Liu: Oh, thank you for inviting me.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at Beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.