Episode 198: Neurodivergence and gender identity – with Charlie Ocean

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Before we get started with today’s episode, I want to give a special shout-out and thank you to Beyond 6 Seconds listener Will, who recently helped support this podcast by purchasing 2 virtual “cups of coffee” for me on BuyMeACoffee.com! BuyMeACoffee.com is a simple way to encourage and support indie podcasters whose content you enjoy, for the price of a cup of coffee, and it helps defray the cost of producing this podcast too. If you’d like to help support or sponsor a future episode, check out the link in the show notes to BuyMeACoffee.com/Beyond6Seconds.

Also, I wanted to let you know that Beyond 6 Seconds is a winner at the 2023 Signal Awards! My September episode about Dissociative Identity Disorder with Amber Louise Ainsworth won a Gold Award from the judging panel and a Listener’s Choice Award in the Best Conversation Starter award category. I’m grateful for these honors, and I wanted to share this happy news with you!

And now, here’s today’s episode!

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

On today’s episode I’m speaking with Charlie Ocean, an award winning LGBTQ+ speaker, trainer, and consultant who is neuroqueer and nonbinary. They have a background in social work and over 15 years of experience with LGBTQ+ community organizing.

To date, they’ve trained thousands of youth and adults on various LGBTQ+ topics in various settings. Charlie is a connector at heart and the host of Allyship is a Verb, a Sonic Bloom Awards and Ambie nominated podcast. Charlie, welcome to the podcast.

Charlie Ocean: Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here today.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I’m really excited to talk with you. I know we’ve been following each other on Instagram for a while as podcasters, and I’m so interested to hear your story of all your, your advocacy and your podcast and, and all of that.

How did you get started with your LGBTQ+ advocacy?

Charlie Ocean: I was in an 11th grade Honors English class. And it was a pretty good group of students, I’d say. And, however, I mean, this was Los Angeles. It was probably either 2003 or 2004, depending on what time of the school year it was. And we happened to be talking about gay authors. I can’t remember how it even came up, but the teacher was just, yeah, discussing them.

And then I just remember, and I’ll never be able to know which student it was, even though it was a smaller group since it was an honors class, but just someone in the back was like, “being gay is a choice!” And I need you to know, like, especially in those days, and I still am, and people probably don’t believe me, but I was just like, shy and awkward baby Charlie. Like I, I didn’t really speak up a lot. I mean, I had spoken up in certain settings. I’ve had a history of doing other kinds of advocacy and activism over the years, starting from even elementary school, but I’d only just started learning about the LGBTQ+ community, really like starting my high school career, which, I started ninth grade in 2000.

So I just remember finding my voice that day and I just said, no, it’s not. And then the teacher just sort of sat back and I just started telling my story up through that point and talked about a lot of the hardships and everything I’d faced. And one of the points I had made was something to the effect of, the choice is whether or not I can live authentically and share this with people, not if I am part of this community or not.

And at that point, I think I was using the language of lesbian, and almost everyone was calling me a tomboy, and I was probably so a tomboy. Lesbian didn’t feel right because I knew, I knew I wasn’t just attracted to women, I knew I was attracted to people who were also of other genders, even though I didn’t know that there were other genders at that point.

So, it was just a really interesting time, and honestly, it set in motion, I, I just found that things like that kept happening in my classes, either someone would make a comment like that. Teachers, and then later professors would just, you know, split us up by gender, you know, and once I came along the term genderqueer, which I no longer use, but you know, I was like, well, where do you want me to sit? What the hell am I supposed to do? Be my own island in the center? Or, you know, I’d be in a human sexuality class, and the professor would be like, okay, women, what do you like in men? Men, what do you like in women? And I’m just sitting there like, you’re ignoring so many different communities right now. And like, I don’t know that, you know, there’s a really great inclusive way of doing that without people feeling like maybe they have to like, out themselves or disclose if they’re not ready or wanting to.

But, so I became a regular speaker. And it was just sharing my story and even if I’d moved on from a class, the teachers and then later professors would have me come back and just like regularly for every semester talk. And I mean, at first it was weird when I was in the class because like one of my, one of my professors made it like this really dramatic over the top entrance of “there’s a student in here today who’s gonna speak to us!” And like, I don’t know, made it like, yeah, the most. I was like, okay. And yeah, so I’ve been like on my own midterms and finals and stuff like that. And yes, I got the questions right, which was great for everyone involved. But yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s really where it started.

But then at some point I realized, okay, I’m inspiring people to give a damn, but now I need to lay foundations for like, what does it mean to show up for the LGBTQ+ community? Or what do pronouns mean? Or if we focus on trans and nonbinary identities and people who are gender expansive, how do we show up for them? So then I started coming up with more concrete offerings and I found it’s a lot harder to share my story in that way. But yeah, that’s, that’s where it started. Was just like someone made an offhand comment and I don’t know if I really reached them that day, but I, I know I did reach a good chunk of folks in the class that day.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah, it’s amazing how sometimes things really start small with one comment and then grow from there.

So you mentioned as you were telling your story that your understanding of your own gender and sexuality kind of evolved over time since, you know, throughout your life. So how did you realize your identity as nonbinary and trans?

Charlie Ocean: If we time travel back to kindergarten, when I finally had a chance to interact with peers my age, I started realizing that, you know, everyone kept telling me I was a girl and a tomboy, and I just listened to that and was like, okay, cool. That’s who you’re telling me I am. Great. But, I knew I had crushes on girls. And, I knew I couldn’t talk about it, because I didn’t see anyone else talking about it. And, you know, this is like… super early 90s, and so even in Los Angeles, which, you know, tends to be a little bit more progressive and everything, it’s not like it’s something we learned about. We, I don’t recall learning about different kinds of families, even if they were blended because maybe there were like stepmoms and stuff involved or something like that, so it just felt really isolating.

So I just, and I didn’t feel a need to share this with anybody initially, but as I continued to grow up, I mean, I was, I had like a lot of strikes against me. Because, you know, being a tomboy was fine until I hit middle school because then people were like, “Oh, you’re still doing that? That’s not like cute anymore.” And it’s like, why, why was I praised earlier? Now this has changed like so quickly. Or just different things like that would happen, and I was like, okay. And then I was also bullied because I was, you know, born into poverty with my family, and so they would be making fun of me. Because we happen to live in a very wealthy neighborhood with like million plus dollar homes all around us, but we only could afford it because my grandma was the manager of the apartment buildings, and my dad also, you know, because I lived with my, my grandma and my dad. So between the two of them and whatever money they were able to bring into the house however, you know, we could scrape by, but yeah, so like, that wasn’t great. So I was teased for, for that.

But then especially just, yeah, being the tomboy, it just really riled people. For the longest time, people would just kind of follow me around or I couldn’t go anywhere without people being like, is that a girl or a boy? And yeah, so that, that wasn’t fun, and that, that wasn’t easy.

And so I didn’t find the language until high school. And really, the two books I credit with helping me to, like, figure out who I am in many respects were The Perks of Being a Wallflower, and also Stone Butch Blues. Stone Butch Blues in particular was important because that’s how I got the language of genderqueer. And that’s what started my whole like, trans branch, if you will, of diving into that community. Because all my life I was trying to figure out the sexuality, sexuality part without realizing it, but I wasn’t thinking about, okay, but also, like, who am I to people in these dynamics? I didn’t really know that there were options, or that, like, people could be trans, and what little I started to learn about it wasn’t good. And meaning, I would hear about things like hate crimes, or just how much discrimination and everything that they would face.

So it wasn’t until my early 20s that I finally embraced being trans. And then I came out as genderqueer, and I had a lot of pushback from that from different people, but then also, unexpectedly, I had some people who really showed up in really great ways. Which leads me to present day, I consider myself nonbinary and neuroqueer because I feel like those are the best nutshell versions of who I am. But I recently had created a galaxy of who I am, and it includes a gender planet, and there’s like sexuality planets, like, you know, orbiting around, and there’s, there’s more nuance there, but for the sake of brevity, so I’m not going through this long list of, well, sometimes I’m this, and sometimes, you know then, yeah. I can just share that later, but it’s just been really liberating.

And I’m, I’m also comfortable with the fact that the language will likely continue to evolve. Not because I’m confused about who I am, but more just that I’ll continue to find language that feels more encompassing for who I am. So yeah, the nutshell version I tell people now is nonbinary and neuroqueer, but I’ve kind of stopped using trans. I’ll, I’ll use it with folks because I think it’ll help explain some of my experience. But I mean, without going into a long monologue, which I can be known for, the short version is that I tend to not use it especially with people who really know me.

Because I just, I don’t agree with the current definition of cis, too. Trans or cis. I feel like they create an unnecessary binary, and there are many of my friends now that don’t know where they would be based on that, because, for example, if they don’t deny that they’re still cisgender, but they’re also, you know, maybe a woman and nonbinary, where does that leave them? So my, my joke is, what are they, cis plus? Like a streaming service? Like, I don’t, I don’t know. I, there’s, you know, so I, and, The definitions conflate sex and gender, which people already get confused about as concepts. So, like, who cares if they’re in alignment or not? And according to who? And when? On what timeline? In what period? I mean, men, you know, dressed very differently in the 70s. What does that say, then?

So… I just, so I don’t currently feel great about using terms like cis or trans just because of that, but I think this is a really exciting opportunity to, I mean for some people they’re going to feel seen by that language so I’m not trying to erase that and that’s, that’s great for them and maybe they have a definition that, you know, is, is better too, but I imagine what will happen is that it’s going to force us to come up with a new tool that can better hold space for the complexities of all of this and so that’s, that’s where I’m at.

But I, I will say, part of what has made it challenging for me to get where I’m at today is when I was first, especially part of like the lesbian community, and really listened to those friends, I’m, there’s one person in particular, I mean, there was, different kinds of harm done. And I’m not saying all lesbians are like this by any means, but some of the ones that I hung out with, like there was some harm done because they kept saying stuff like “you’re just a butch lesbian, get over it. You’re not really like bisexual or pan or any of this other stuff.” And I mean, trans wasn’t even on the table at that point, right? We weren’t really talking about it. So but I, I think that caused a lot of harm because I tried to trust my community and friends. So I thought I should be able to trust everything. And that just like kind of put a wrench in the work and made it a lot harder to eventually, you know, land where I’m today, for example. So, and it’s, it’s only gotten further complicated by being neuroqueer, but in good, in good ways, in very good ways.

Carolyn Kiel: It is interesting thinking about language that as society takes a broader view of gender identity and sexuality away from the traditional binary and then kind of created cis and trans, which kind of sounds like another binary.

So I think you’re, you’re, you know, the way, and language is always evolving, of course, but the way of thinking about it is that it really is just so much of a broader spectrum.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah. So that’s my hot take. I don’t care for cis or trans. But I also recognize, again, I don’t want to erase people. I know there’s going to be people who feel seen and heard by that, but also it just has like bad PR too, right? There’s a lot of people who would be considered to be cis or cisgender by definition, but because they think being trans is so ugly and whatever, then they consider cis to be like a slur. But it’s interesting that that same thing hasn’t happened with terms like straight or heterosexual. So it’s, it’s all, it’s all interesting. That’s what I can say. It’s all interesting.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

And you know, I definitely want to learn more about the term neuroqueer because I know for me, that’s a term that I’ve heard before, although I can’t say I have a very deep understanding of what that is. And that I’m assuming is sort of a, a, a combination of your gender identity, sexuality, and your neurodivergence as well. So I’d love to learn first more about your, your neurodivergence and kind of how did you discover that you’re neurodivergent?

Charlie Ocean: TikTok diagnosed me. I was, it was November of a few years ago, earlier in the pandemic, and I, I don’t know, ventured on there, and it quickly spit me into ADHD TikTok, and then within just like a week or two, I was in combo ADHD and Autistic TikTok. And ADHD TikTok was fun because it felt very easily and quickly relatable. I found myself laughing at a lot of this stuff, and I was like, okay. But I’d had friends who had told me they were diagnosed, and including women. I think most of them, though, were later in life. And honestly, because it never really, like, impacted our friendship or anything in any way that felt meaningful to me, like, I just… I didn’t really look it up or learn much about it, so I didn’t even know really what it meant to be ADHD, other than people would be like, “Oh my God, I’m so ADHD!” And now we’re like, aaah, stop saying that. Unless you really are. And even then, maybe don’t. Maybe say it a different way. Because that feels like off limits now. But yeah, but unless you’re like in community, then it’s different, right?

But the autism piece, so like, I wasn’t even questioning or thinking like, Oh, maybe I’m ADHD because this is so relatable. It wasn’t until then I was also in the autistic TikTok land that I was like, wait. And that one I had a harder time with because I’d even watched some shows with like, following different autistic people and, you know, I mean, they’re Hollywood and being, again, someone who’s from, originally from Los Angeles, but now lives in Denver, Colorado, I took all of that with a grain of salt, because I know how Hollywood can be. I just, you know, so, but, you know, when I’m watching shows like Atypical or The Good Doctor, it tends to be white men, and they tend to have more of a, like, robotic voice, and, you know, there’s just, like, these, like, stereotypes or tropes that are perpetuated. And so, like, I never saw myself in that, and those were the only folks I saw. And a lot of these are considered, like, a boy’s thing, so, with all of that, then, I had my own hard time embracing that.

But eventually, I did go and get an official diagnosis for ADHD, which actually probably saved my life in a few ways. I mean, number one, my, I call her my “drug lady” just because I always forget what her official title is and, but she, she’s cool. Shout out to Victoria. She’s great. But she made me do like this blood panel. I mean, I, my levels of vitamin D were in, like, such an emergency state, I had to take literally an emergency dose of vitamin D for, like, six months. We’re still trying to get my vitamin D up. I don’t know what all is going on there. But she was just telling me more recently that the reason why it needs to be over 60 is because it does things like, they’ve proven scientifically that like 60 is like the magic number. If it’s under that, then it can exacerbate things like depression symptoms. My B12 was also low. So now I’m like on all these like supplements and stuff and, you know, just really trying to take care of that. But I will say that’s helped my mental health incredibly. Like, by heaps and bounds. And, so yeah, getting that all underway has been really important.

But, I do take medication. They kept trying to get me to do stimulants first, and I didn’t like it, because it just felt like I was like kind of buzzed or something, with like energy all the time, and I was always worried I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep. But now I’m on a mixture of meds to help with my depression, my anxiety, my ADHD, and also like the rejection sensitivity. I didn’t realize, I mean, I thought a lot of this was just like a lack of self confidence. I mean, if you’d looked at the records of my, even my elementary school grades and everything, it constantly said like low self esteem, et cetera, like all of this stuff. And well, yeah, I was like bullied and everything too, so sure. But yeah, the rejection sensitivity. It’s just like, I’d felt, especially in my childhood, I’d felt so broken and I couldn’t tell you why. And so to have everything come together the way it has has been fascinating to me because all of these like seemingly unrelated events, I don’t think I could have ever put together were a combination of me being autistic and ADHD.

So I work closely with a really great team right now, again, monitoring all of my symptoms and everything. And while the medication part isn’t a fix all, it does help, it really does make a difference, and it takes like the edge off. And so I still have to come up with my own systems and ways of being productive, especially as an entrepreneur, so that’s, that’s a whole thing, but yeah. It, it just opened this whole other rabbit hole.

So I will quickly say that I will not be seeking a formal autism diagnosis. The reason being, the amount of ableism I’ve already been experiencing has been horrific, and honestly, unless you’re like the adult of a child who’s autistic, there really aren’t a lot of resources for autistic adults. And, it creates a scenario where, I mean, again, there’s like such deeply rooted ableism in all of these systems, that. I could be considered a burden on society if I tried to emigrate somewhere else. Or, you know, just like we saw with Britney Spears, I’m not saying she’s autistic, but we saw what a conservatorship could do to someone, especially when people are abusing that kind of system. And if I had kids, they could be taken away, like, there’s so many things, you know, I’d feel like I’d be in constant fear. And again, if there’s no resources really out there, so I’m team, like, self diagnosis.

And again, it still took me a long time because it wasn’t until, yeah, I was, I was on TikTok that I finally started seeing people where I’m like, okay. And then now on Instagram and now on LinkedIn where people are just being so open about their experiences. I’m so grateful. Because I’m like, wow, I feel seen and heard in a way that I did not know I needed.

Because I can tell you the first time, like all the way back to second grade, the first time I felt my neurodivergence being a problem. And more specifically, I guess when I use neurodivergence, I more so mean my being ADHD and autistic, but I’m also, you know, PTSD or CPTSD now that as it’s updated and, and all of that, so you know, there’s a host of others, but those are what I mean specifically. But yeah, I, I remember like the first time I felt that bump against society, because like, I’d be criticized for things that I literally didn’t understand what I was doing wrong.

So quick example being second grade. I mean, I never got along with that teacher from the, in the first place. And that was like a really rough year for me as a kid for a bunch of different reasons. But we were having this community garden and our first task was to take out all of the weeds. Cool! My dad and grandma are green thumbs. So I was very excited about this because I was like, I know what I’m doing! So that’s all she said, right? She didn’t give any other instruction, really. And, you know, in those days, we had our disposable cameras, so she was, you know, taking photos, so we could, like, follow this project along. And when the photos came back, when she’d gotten them all developed, she yelled at me in front of the whole class, because I was this pink shirted blur in the background of basically every single photo. Not because I’m like, “hey!” like, you know, trying to wave my arm and, like, get attention to be photographed. It’s because… I picked weeds over here, and then I picked them over there, and then I went over there and picked weeds, and then I picked weeds here, and then, but I was always pulling the weeds. So she got mad at me because I was in every photo, and she got mad at me because I didn’t sit in one spot and just pick the weeds in one spot.

And I, I just didn’t understand why I was being yelled at in front of the whole class for this. Number one, like, as an adult now, I’m like, that’s a private conversation. And number two, like, I did nothing wrong. I picked the weeds. You didn’t say, “but you can only pick them this way. Like, you have to sit in this one spot, and that is your spot. You can’t move.” Like, so, I mean, that’s the first bump I came against, and then that’s when I started to learn that there are just parts of myself I was gonna have to hide, and there were things I was gonna have to do because it was expected of me, but it’s not what would come naturally to me. Like, who cares how I picked the damn weeds? You just needed them picked. I picked them. Who cares? But she did. So.

Carolyn Kiel: Baffling stuff. Yeah. It’s, I mean, I guess my, my minor hot take as I talk to so many people who are autistic or have ADHD and they tell me about their childhoods is that there’s so many, so many neurodivergent kids who are just surrounded by people who are just like jerks, honestly. Like, it’s one thing for her to not, you know, to have a different opinion, but to criticize you publicly, like. An adult should know better to be doing stuff like that, yeah.

Charlie Ocean: I, you know, like I said, it was a really rough year for me. I’m not saying I’m a kid who, like, acted out, but there was a lot of stuff going on and there were other things that we had to deal with, with my family and stuff too, so, I just, I, I feel like she just didn’t even know what to do with me. And honestly, same! But like, we just didn’t know, we didn’t know.

And so, to your point, neuroqueer, I mean, it was coined in the spring of 2008 by Nick Walker, who uses she/her pronouns, and, I couldn’t, you know, ramble off that particular definition off the top of my head, But, I know for myself, like you had kind of suggested, to me, it acknowledges my neurodivergence, and how it intersects with my queerness. And so with my queerness being, yeah, my sexuality, my quote unquote lifestyle. Which, I don’t mind saying it’s a lifestyle, I know like, some of us have said, like, there is no gay lifestyle. I don’t just go get gay lunch. Like, yeah, you do. You know how many people get gay brunch? Like, can we just be real that there is a lifestyle? I mean, you look up the definition of it, right? It says, like, you know, usually something to the effect of, like, how a group tends to do things. So it’s like, while we don’t all have to follow that, and it’s not a hard rule that we need to go to, like, drag bingo on a Wednesday night, like, let’s be honest that there’s, like, different parts of queer culture and a queer lifestyle.

Like, to me, queer lifestyle, just zooming out for a second, means there are a buffet of options, and we’re aware that they exist. It doesn’t mean that we have to have a gender or express it in a way that’s expansive or that we have to try polyamory or live in a house where we’re just sharing it with a best friend. And we’re truly best friends. We’re not secretly lovers or something, you know, like. There are just different ways of living, and they’re all okay, and, like, just let people live in the ways that make sense for them, so that when people like me don’t see a white picket fence, 2.5 dogs, kids, a partner, like, that it’s okay, and I don’t feel like I’m, you know, a jerkface for not wanting that.

So when they come together, and this is why, this was so important, I finally had an epiphany September of 2022 that my gender in particular, I mean, cause a lot of people will mistakenly call me transmasculine, and besides my whole rant about, you know, trans and cis, beside that, I’ve never considered myself to be masculine or transmasculine, so it’s always like, stung, and I couldn’t articulate why. Even when I sought out gender affirming surgeries, like having my chest flattened, or having a full hysterectomy, and things like that, that felt important to me. Historically, I would tell you I was trying to almost, like, neutralize my body, or remove things that might be considered to be, I don’t know, maybe feminine, or for women, or something like that. Because that was the best language I had at that time.

Now I understand, and I don’t exactly use auti or auti or however it’s pronounced, gender as a term for myself. I prefer neuroqueer. But I now understand my autism HEAVILY influences my gender. Like, that is like the first lens before gender even happens. Because now when I really, really critically think about it, you know, the reason my hair is short and all of that is because it provides a better sensory experience. I love when my hair is shorter and it has a fade and I can play with it. I love the sensory experience of being able to fidget with my beard. Or the, you know, my top surgery was important because again, it’s, it was a sensory experience. Same thing for like when I was menstruating and you know, then I had a full hysterectomy and all of that. All of it has provided better sensory experiences.

So even when I think about things like clothing, it’s not because I wanted specifically boys or men’s clothing, it’s just that those tended to have, like, colors that were less likely to, I don’t know, hurt my eyes, and the fabric tends to be softer or more comfortable. I mean, I think there’s a reason why, you know, ex girlfriends would steal my sweatshirts and stuff, right? I mean, besides the fact it would smell like me. They were also like, softer and had pockets and things like that. We know women are denied pockets and all that. And I know fashion wise there’s some reasons as to why quote unquote boys and men’s clothing tends to be softer. A lot of it has to do with if you’re trying to offer them at the same price point, then you have to make some cuts. And that means that if you want a shirt for, again, a quote unquote girl or woman to be more elaborate, then that means they have to like get a cheaper fabric. And then that means it might be more scratchy, but at least you get your ruffles or whatever else the hell is going on. I don’t know.

So now, now that I understand that, I’m actually grateful I didn’t understand this until more recently, because had I shared that with any of my doctors at any point for like getting access to testosterone or those surgeries, they would have said, “you have mental health issues. You need to go to a therapist and we’re denying you like, access to this.” There’s no way they would have been able to hold space for that. They’d say, like, “yeah, something else is going on with you. You’re not what fits the bill for trans.” I mean, I definitely didn’t let them know I was nonbinary either back then because that was also stigmatized and wasn’t really known about. And so I had to let them think I was a trans guy, for example, to get access to services. But again, I’m great. I’m happy. I’m happy I’ve had them, like, no mistakes, no regrets, nothing. But yeah, these, these dang systems! So, it’s complicated.

So, yes, in short, neuroqueer for me means, like, yeah, these, these intersections are just incredibly and deeply important to me, and when I’m with folks who are also at those same intersections, even if it’s not quite the same as my experience, I don’t have to compartmentalize who I am. I can just be who I am, and it’s celebrated and appreciated, and… And likewise, I do the same for others. So, it’s made all of the difference. I’m sad it took me this long to find this community. But, I, now, now I don’t feel like broken or lost or confused. I just, again, how would I have possibly known all these things were linked and so important to each other?

I just, yeah. So thanks, TikTok! Like, I guess that’s all I can say. I’ve, I will quickly say that I have since deleted TikTok. I mean, not even just for privacy issues, but also I think I’ve learned enough about myself for a minute and just want to like take a beat and just sit with this and process. No more learning for a minute.

Carolyn Kiel: Don’t need any more revelations right now!

Charlie Ocean: No.

Carolyn Kiel: Plenty of stuff to process. It’s funny, people make, I don’t know, make jokes or even criticize TikTok for that feature that you said that the algorithm basically, you know, can diagnose or it will present content based on other stuff that you watch that resonates with you.

But yeah, that algorithm sometimes it’s, it’s better than a lot of medical professionals sometimes. So, it, it, there really is something behind it. And yeah, I know a lot of people who started watching videos and connecting that way. And obviously nobody watches a video and is like, Oh my God, this is, this is the answer! This is it! But it starts that, you know, that, that quest for knowledge and just connecting with community and kind of starts you out on your journey with that.

Charlie Ocean: Oh, yeah. Because it wasn’t like the first or even the second video. It took a while. Like, I wasn’t connecting, why, why am I laughing at this? Why is this relatable?

It also could have been because I saw my friends in it, but not necessarily myself, right? But I saw both, which is why, and this tends to be what happens, is that I tend to be the first person who like, quote unquote comes out, and then my other friends start to figure it out after me. So now, as a result of me sharing my experience more publicly that I am ADHD and autistic, it’s, especially the ADHD piece, has helped a lot of my friends better understand themselves. And they’re like, oh! So now they’re able to get the support and everything they need too. And I’m, I’m really happy.

And again, it’s not because, you know, I’m waving a magic spork and converting all of my friends. We have a way of gravitating toward each other.

Carolyn Kiel: Yes.

Charlie Ocean: So, it makes sense that we would be able to better, like, not all of my friends can we get on a phone call and have three separate conversations happening on the same phone call, but like, perfectly understand, like, what we’re like, piggybacking on, and all of the, like, perfectly following along. Not all my friends can do that. But the ones who can, I’m like, so, you’re welcome for this thing that you’re about to learn about yourself potentially! Yeah, so.

Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: It’s interesting. Yeah, we do tend to gravitate toward each other and find each other. And going back to the whole concept of, you know, self-diagnosis, I, I read a quote somewhere, I don’t know who said it, is that, when your friends basically figure out that you are, you know, neurodivergent, like, that’s not, that’s not self diagnosis, that’s a peer review.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah!

Carolyn Kiel: Just as, just as valid!

Charlie Ocean: And yeah, I would never like go around wagging a finger and being like, “guess what!” You know, because I think everyone has their own journey. But also it’s not like, you know, people can’t have some of what we would see in someone who’s ADHD, for example, and then be like, “Oh, you must fit the bill then.” I, you know, it doesn’t work that way. But there’s just been, yeah, enough content out there now and everything. Like I said, I got confirmation. But, and even then, you know, I mean, that’s a whole tricky path because, like, medical professionals aren’t always, like, in our best interest and stuff, too. Because, I mean, that whole industry, again, is filled with things of, like medical bias and ableism and all of that. But, again, my my life, especially doing a life review, it just makes so much more sense now.

And, like, an another quick example I can give of, like, a really big pain point that neither of us understood what was happening. I was at a company, and I was working with someone in HR on something, and because we were both part of the onboarding process of new hires, which I loved, we would have these, like, meetings after, like, that big week of introducing people to the company. And we were all holding different parts of that, and so we were meant to like, report back on like, things that maybe went well, and things that could have gone better. She just like, went off on me at some point, and was just like, “you come in with too many things!” Be it good or bad, I guess. And I was like, but this is what this is for. She’s like, “yeah, but you bring in too many things!” And I’m like, well, I don’t understand. So like, well, then how many? And she’s like, “just not that many!” And I’m like, but how many? Right? And I’m like, I’m seeking clarity. Because it’s like, if you don’t give me some sort of range, I’m clearly not picking up on this expectation. And again, this is all before I understand my diagnoses and know about them at all. I was still like very much in the dark about all of it. And so we just kept going around in circles. I was like, I just need like a range. Just give me a range so that I am showing up in the way you’re asking me to.

And also this was terrible because like our whole company, one of the main points is that we were supposed to give people timely feedback. She’d been sitting on that for six months, like stewing. So like we got nowhere. We got nowhere. And so then it just makes me shut down and not want to bring up anything at all, right? Cause then it’s like, I don’t know how to show up now, so I’d rather just opt out. So like, I would still show up, but like, I just wouldn’t say anything. Because I didn’t know what else to do.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, feedback should be timely and specific. Not like, too much stuff, can’t tell you what’s the right number, just guess. I don’t know.

Charlie Ocean: But from her, from her point of view, she feels it’s common sense. And now, now that I understand, right? That’s a whole loaded thing. So now that I understand I’m neurodivergent, I’m like, common sense is just ableism. You can’t expect that. I mean, you can set cultural norms in a place, but you need to make those explicitly clear. You can make community agreements or things like that, whatever you want to call it, but you can’t say common sense. Because at the end of the day, it’s just like loaded with ableism and just like expectations that aren’t communicated. So I hate, I hate that term now. But yeah. Ah! Heated.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, and yeah, I was curious because you now have your own business, but you spent time working you know, as, you have a background in social work and you spent time in the working world. So I guess that was one example. But are there other experiences that you’ve had in the working world that have been, that you’ve noticed sort of in, in retrospect like, oh, my neuroqueer identity really impacted that situation or, or the way that I was perceived at that time?

Charlie Ocean: Yeah. I mean. Like, I guess with any of the supposed strengths I have as far as what I can do, like, being able to be critical but not, like, overly critical necessarily of a program or something, like, some people see great value in that because I can review, like, a employee guidebook and say, you know, flagging these things, like, this is fat shaming, this is, you know, whatever. Right? I may not always be able to say, here’s how to fix it. I’ll have to say, find someone that this is like their specialty. But I can say like, yeah, like this is, you know, unnecessarily gendered, et cetera.

But there’s other people that then would be like, like be inclined to think that that’s all I do then is harp on all of those little things. And like, that’s not true. My brain would, is too tired for that. Like I have to be like in the mood and like want to put on my consulting hat.

I would say that, like, just the 9 to 5 world, it would be very challenging for me to go back to that. Number one, because disclosing any disabilities, but especially ones that are confused and not understood. I don’t want to be used as like a scapegoat, which I’ve read a lot of people talking about online of how they’re like, kinda, well, let me not go down that path today. Let me not go down that path today. But, just, yeah. I just don’t trust that I’ll be able to get what I need to be successful, right? And so a lot of these companies have, you know, or organizations, either because of lack of funding or because they think this is the thing to do, you’re like working in a noisy environment, and if you’re not, like, you know, participating in water cooler talk and then going and hanging out with them on weekends at like, I don’t know, different like company events or something, then like something’s wrong with you. And it’s like maybe I just need to work in an environment that’s quiet so I’m not distracted by like all the stuff that’s happening around me, so I can actually get work done, because that’s how I work. And it’s not like I wouldn’t want to collaborate with someone but, you know, whether it’s a budget thing or whatever.

You know, just it’s, it’s so expensive to be disabled. It is so expensive, because like, I have to get glasses, I have to get medication, I have to get all of these different things just to try to even appear to be a quote unquote normal person in our society, and it’s hot garbage. So, being able to be an entrepreneur and being able to proudly say, like, how all I identify, and being able to set myself up for success in ways that feel good and natural to me, like, that’s amazing. I just, I know I wouldn’t always be afforded that somewhere else I go. Or, and it’s dependent upon like a manager or whoever else would be above me, right? Like, I could all of a sudden have a, a manager or some, a supervisor or something that’s like, not willing to meet me where I’m at. And… You know, it just, then it creates all these problems and then guess what? I have to go. And then it’s going to be that much harder to get, you know, to not like burn a bridge and to have references.

And so luckily, you know, with my clients, even though months like Pride where like everyone has to have an event, right? I mean, I mean, it’s awful for my executive functioning. The amount of work I have to do before and after those things is just awful. And I, I don’t make enough to, like, hire an admin person to save me from myself. But, again, like, and I think, I forget what the statistic is, but I know that neurodivergent people specifically either, I want to say ADHD and/or autistic, we tend to be entrepreneurs. And I think a lot of it is also because like someone like me, I go into an organization, they don’t know that they’re hiring like a Trojan horse in the best way. Cause like, I want to come in and make things better. I can’t, when I see injustice, I can’t pretend I don’t see that. So I have to speak out and speak up and do something. And there’s just, it’s a point where like, even every place I’ve worked at every single one of them, they’re just, it’s a point where they’re like not ready to move that needle anymore. They’re like, we’ve already done a lot of moving of this needle, Charlie, so, can we… and I’m like, no, the work must go on. Yeah, we’ve done this, but now we need to do this. Like, come on, let’s do this, it’s the right thing to do. And it’s not to be like, argumentative or confrontational or anything like that, cause I don’t love heated situations at all, but, or conflicts, but, It’s just, it gets really stressful for me, but I, yeah, we, if we’re aware that we’re not doing something in a way that’s, like, really honoring people, why would we continue to do that?

So, there’s times I’ve had to leave jobs before I knew that they were probably gonna start thinking about how to fire me. And rather than do it, I just would, you know, sort of, be like, Okay, it’s my time to go now. Let’s just try to end this on as nice of a note as possible, and I’ll just try to be happy with whatever progress I’ve made at this company.

So it’s hard. Like, so where would I go? I don’t know. But that’s, that’s why, yeah, I really love being an entrepreneur. I mean, it’s stressful when, when you’re, you know, still trying to make sure you can pay all your bills and stuff. But again, like the trade off of, yeah, if I have a migraine, all of a sudden I can just go and, you know, do what I need to do to take care of myself and not worry about having to report to anyone or having someone be like, “well, you’ve been having a lot of migraines lately.” and it’s like, yeah, cause life is stressful. Cause apparently I’m sensitive to, you know, the pressure drops and stuff. And we have these thunderstorms and stuff coming in. Like, yeah, let me take care of myself. Thanks. So yeah, but it’s, yeah, it’s just really interesting.

Carolyn Kiel: And the type of consulting that you do, is that similar to like sort of the changes that you were trying to make from within as an employee? Because I think sometimes companies are way more receptive to a consultant coming in and pointing out problems and giving solutions than to employees identifying the same problems and trying to make change from within, but I don’t know what your experience has been.

Charlie Ocean: Well that, and you’re also asking of emotional labor, free emotional labor, usually of those, like, historically underrepresented groups. So that’s not cool. So yeah, I do think it’s important. I mean, I do think employee input should be considered and listened to and requested. And yes, I think at the end of the day, it’s better if the companies invest in making sure and really doing the work of like finding references and stuff of someone before they hire them. Because like there’s companies or organizations that’ll reach out to me. And, you know, it’s not always a good cultural fit, but I also know a lot of people doing similar work or, you know, with different kinds of populations. And I love being able to like safely refer someone because I know, like, they’re doing the work and doing what they need to do. But yeah, sometimes I’m not a good fit for a place.

I will say, I don’t know what I’ve done or what’s happened in my marketing or what, that I tend to be a magnet for, for companies and organizations that are newer to doing this work and need a lot of handholding, because like, fear of backlash and things like that. And it’s like, well, at the end of the day, and I can say this and they can’t, right? But like, at the end of the day, if it shakes out some assholes, isn’t that a good thing? Let them go somewhere else. So, if they’re not gonna fit the cultural norms and everything that you’re trying to implement and get people on board with, then yeah, you probably are gonna lose some people, and maybe not so quietly, and everyone’s probably gonna be better for it.

So, but, yeah, so more often than not, I do training and like workshops and things like that, but not, not everyone’s willing to do the work, because it also costs money. Like, I have an up to speed package where it takes like 6 to 12 months, and very few companies have like gone through this with me so far. Also because I don’t really promote it a lot outwardly because I’m still trying to decide like is the “up to speed package” really the jazziest name we could come up with? But yeah, like we go through everything. Like the policies, procedures, naming of things. You know HR for example has their own workshop and we spend time talking about okay, when you are supporting LGBTQ+ employees, this is the language you want to use. So like if someone says they want to like transition at the workplace, you’re not asking them like, “oh, okay, so you want like a sex change?” No, like you ask them, you know, first off, that’s not the language we use. And secondly, you want to like, you know, create an environment where you already know, for example, and this is one of the bigger parts, is when an employee wants to change their name and or pronouns and, and gender marker or sex marker, however they have it in their system, then who all’s responsible for that? And then who all needs to know? And then if they are going by a name that’s different, but legally that’s not how they’re known by, again, who has, like, on a very need to know basis, who has access to the legal name? So when things like payroll need to be processed, that stuff is, like, all squared away.

So, like, it’s a lot. And so, you know, but more often than not, and, you know, this is still planting a seed. More often than not, people are like, “yeah, well, we just want, like, one hour, and we want it interactive, and we want, like, a bunch of time for Q& A, we want all of these things, and we want to start five minutes late, and, like, this is the only time we’re going to talk about pronouns.” And I’m like, I don’t know what miracles you’re expecting me to pull here, but, like, this is not how this works. I will still take your money, I’ll still do the hour, but just understand, like, that’s not gonna influence the change that you’re really seeking. You can’t just do a one off, one hour pronouns training.

That’s, that’s not, there’s, like, because people don’t understand, like, Marketing wants to be involved, because even if you do something, like, have it on the business cards and the email signature, like, pronouns, those are outward facing things. And Marketing wants a say in how that looks, so there’s some sort of uniformity. They also want to make the decision of, do we have the link that says like, “what’s this?” with the question mark? And it’s a link where people can go to learn more. I mean, all like, so that’s why, like when they work with me, we get all of that sorted out. So that like, there are very few bumps, if any, in the process of rolling it out.

And by the time they’re rolled out and, you know, we’re telling managers and leaders, like, here are the changes to come, here’s your responsibility in this, here’s the intranet page that all of that’s going to be posted on that you can send employees to, whatever. You know, like, everything has already been, like, figured out, so.

And if something isn’t a permanent solution, we at least have temporary workarounds with the understanding, like, this is a priority and we’re, we’re going to fix it in X amount of time. So, but yeah, but that’s a lot!

Carolyn Kiel: It is and it takes time.

Yeah, I also want to spend a little time talking about your podcast because we’re both podcast hosts and you host an award nominated podcast called Allyship is a Verb. What inspired you to start a podcast and what kind of topics do you talk about there?

Charlie Ocean: Thank you so much for asking. I, where do I even start? Well, because of all of the speaking and training that I’ve been doing over the years, I’ve realized, just like with those clients I was just mentioning, people have a fear. They don’t have a lot of confidence when it comes to practicing allyship of any kind. And a lot of that also I think, especially within like the past five years or so, I think is also directly related to this rise of cancel culture that we’ve been seeing. So like, cancel culture being that someone thinks that oh, maybe they would call me the wrong name or pronoun by accident, and now they’re gonna get canceled. And I’m like, well, that’s not how that works. You know, yeah, so we might de platform someone like Caitlyn Jenner, who’s a harmful person to the trans community, and a complete hypocrite, and keeps trying to rub elbows with communities that will like never really embrace her or accept her or us. And yet, here we are. So like, yeah, someone like Caitlyn, I would never sit here and use her previous name or pronoun set, cause that’s, that’s like, that is completely off limits. I don’t care what someone’s done. But, I want her deplatformed because she harms people, especially when she’s actively talking about, like, that trans girls should not be allowed in sports. And it’s like, again, you of all people, like, being the face of that? Are you kidding me? And she still plays sports herself. Whatever.

Anyway, that said, so… Because people are so afraid of saying and doing the wrong thing, a lot of people just freeze and don’t get started at all. And so, Allyship is a Verb has been an attempt at saying, Okay, listen, this is hard and messy work. If we’re not uncomfortable at times, we’re likely not doing it right. Because one of my biggest like peeves is that when people go around claiming to be allies and they’ll have like hashtag BLM, hashtag Stop Asian Hate. And I’m like, okay, but like, what are you doing? What are you doing to supposedly be an ally? If you’re not actually doing something, like a hashtag in your bio isn’t going to do anything. Like, you know? And honestly, more often than not, when people have claimed to me directly that they’re allies when they learn I’m from the community, more often than not, they’ll do something harmful, like say, “Oh yeah, my cousin’s gay.” And you know what I’m thinking? Immediately, I think you’re not safe, because like, do you even have permission to out your cousin? Like, that’s what I’m thinking. Or they’ll do the same thing with neurodivergence. “Oh, you know, my younger brother is autistic!” Again, is that what your brother wants people to know? I’m not saying this is like shameful and hush hush and we shouldn’t talk about it at all but like, you’re probably outing me to people, you’re outing others to me, so then this is not the safer environment you’re trying to create.

So I want us to get better at knowing how to apologize, when to apologize, how to hold ourselves accountable, how to hold others accountable, and realize the LGBTQ+ community broadly is not a monolith, or any of the subgroupings. I mean, if we could all agree on something, we’d finally have like one acronym or initialism to like rule them all, but we don’t. So like, that would be an example, right? But so, yeah, I want, I want people to get messy. So I want people to hear directly from members of the LGBTQ+ community. I want them to hear their stories. I want them to hear about times they’ve made mistakes and what they do differently now. And then each guest also shares out a very specific tip as far as like, for folks to consider. So that way they’re equipped with all these tools that like when their friend comes to them, or they see their friend in pain, they can say, “Hey, here are very concrete ways I can support you. Would any of this, like, be helpful to you right now?” Versus that, you know, “how can I help you?” And like putting more emotional burden and labor on that person. So that’s, that’s what I want.

And I want people to make mistakes because then they’ll be growing. Because we’re going to. I make mistakes. I’ve even made mistakes in the episodes, and I leave them there because who am I if I, like, erase them? And then, like, we’re not all benefiting from that moment. Right? Like, I’m just increasing the shame. So, yeah, I’m very proud of that work. And also I’m happy that it’s not just like coming from me solely. So I really love that I’m amplifying other people’s voices and so that they can diversify who they listen to as well. I think that’s really important.

Carolyn Kiel: That’s awesome. Yeah. That is an important part of allyship that gets left out a lot is that, you know, if you’re not making mistakes, you probably aren’t doing very much as an ally besides like posting hashtags and, and graphics on social media. And it’s uncomfortable and people generally don’t like to be uncomfortable and you know, that, so it’s good to have your work kind of sort of combat or call out that fear and say, like, no, like, you should be making mistakes. Like, I’m not saying go out and hurt people purposely! But it’s all part of the learning process and it’s okay. You’re not going to get like cancelled or all these other things, I don’t know. But yeah. That’s an important point.

Charlie Ocean: But those are the fears people genuinely have. I’m like yeah, that’s not how that works. Like, I’ll hear you every time you misgender me or use the wrong name for me, and I’ll decide that day if I have enough spoons or energy or what to, like, correct you. But, you know, at the end of the day, unless especially it’s, like, malicious and on purpose and stuff, like, I know people are trying and doing the best they can. And people are just so afraid to even ask, like, “what do you want me to do?” That then, like, the conversations just aren’t happening. And that’s, that’s also not okay.

So, and I’m not saying, like, go ask your Black friends for more free labor and, like, how can I be a better ally to you and stuff. There are already people doing that work. Listen to them. They’ve already been saying for a long time what they need, and, you know, Blackout Tuesday with a bunch of black squares showing up on, on Instagram was not it. That’s done nothing for Black people’s liberation. So, but there’s already people very loudly, and who have been very loudly saying for years now what they need. Reparations, right? For example. So. Yeah. Ah, it’s hard though. It’s hard. I get it. I get it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it is. But that information is out there so it’s important to to find it and, and read it and compensate people for the work that they’re doing in this area.

Charlie Ocean: Yes.

Carolyn Kiel: Absolutely.

Charlie Ocean: Exactly.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Well, Charlie, it’s been so great talking with you. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the consulting you do or find the podcast?

Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Thank you for that opportunity. I have a bunch of websites, but two in particular that we could start with would be AllyshipIsAVerb.com if people want to check out the podcast and learn more, especially about a really awesome project I have coming up as a result of that. And yeah, for training, consulting, all that fun stuff, they can go to queer dot training. I like having really good domain names. It’s fun for me.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, awesome. I’ll put links to those websites in the show notes.

Well, thanks again, Charlie. It was great talking with you today and thanks for sharing your story and so much really valuable information and advice on my podcast today.

Charlie Ocean: Thank you so much for having me and let me yeah, letting me go on all these random rabbit holes and monologues and such. I appreciate it. It’s been really great to connect with you.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.