Episode 168: A neurodivergent approach to workplace wellbeing – with Lee Chambers

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn Kiel: Hi, I’ve got a great episode for you today. I’m talking with Lee Chambers, a business psychologist, workplace well-being consultant and award-winning entrepreneur based in the UK. On this episode, Lee talks about what it was like for him growing up as an autistic Black boy – and how intersections between race, neurodivergence, gender and socioeconomic status impacted his school and social life. In childhood, and even today as an adult, Lee has had a hard time finding positive portrayals of autistic Black men and boys in the media – so he’s been sharing his own story to be the type of role model that he didn’t get to see growing up.

He also talks about well-being in the workplace – what that means, why it’s important for employee retention, talent development and a healthy workplace culture, and why he talks to businesses about menopause. Lee has a lot of fascinating insights about talent management and menopause that I had never considered before. He has always thought differently and isn’t afraid to ask tough questions or bring up traditionally taboo topics, making him a powerful leader of change.

These are the types of stories that I personally don’t think get shared frequently enough. If these stories and insights resonate with you too, then please help me amplify them by sharing this podcast! Are you listening on your phone right now? Could you do me a quick favor? Take a screenshot of this episode, post it to your social media, and tag me at beyond6seconds. Or if you’re at your computer, then share my podcast website, beyond6seconds.net, with a friend so they can enjoy it too. Independent podcasts like this one rely on recommendations from listeners like you, in order to grow – so thank you for helping me get the word out!

Ok, let’s get to my interview with Lee.

Hello, and welcome to the Beyond 6 Seconds podcast. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel. And on today’s episode, I’m really excited to be speaking with Lee Chambers. Lee is a business psychologist and founder of Essentialise Workplace Wellbeing. He has a diverse career, working in a variety of fields from elite sports to corporate finance and launched and sold a video game business along the way.

He now supports organizations in designing and delivering well-being and inclusion strategies and offers bespoke, engaging training and workshops. He’s the current Great British Entrepreneur of the Year for Service industries, and can often be found speaking on gender equity and menopause in the workplace. I’m excited to learn more about Lee’s career as well as our main topic for today, which is Lee’s experience as a Black autistic man. Lee, welcome to the podcast.

Lee Chambers: Pleasure to be with you today.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s really a pleasure to speak with you. And I’m excited that we connected and that you’ve said yes to sharing your story on the show. When did you discover that you’re autistic, like, how did that discovery come about?

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So interestingly, Carolyn, it was quite recent, as an adult. And obviously our understanding around neurodiversity has increased massively over the past five years. But my own journey actually started on the diagnosis journey for my son. So going through the process with him and having a variety of meetings with different medical professionals, on that journey, we actually met with an educational psychologist who was doing a report for, for my son, as we kind of went through that diagnosis schedule of, of, you know, going through that, to get him the support that he deserves and to get more clarity on his situation so that he can get as much from his education as he possibly can. What actually happened is, you know, speaking to the educational psychologist, obviously in the diagnosis journey, there are parental interviews and it was during those parental interviews that the educational psychologist, right at the end said to me, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, does it?

So that really kind of had me thinking and realizing that. Yeah. As, as, as a, as a young boy, I was always, you know, a bit different. I was always a bit of a misfit. I was always the weird one. I was always the one who was doing things that other kids thought, no, it’s a bit strange. And I’ve always had really, really strong things like pattern recognition, ability to retain information and play with data in ways that other people couldn’t, and very like driven obsession, almost about trying to understand people and why they do what they do and how the world is, the way that it is. That kind of has always been something for me that’s been curiosity. So even now, as I approach 40 years old, I can be very childlike, asking questions, wanting to know why things work and, you know, in the marketing of adulthood, you’re not really supposed to be like that after you’ve turned 20. You’re supposed to not want to play. You’re supposed to not want to ask questions all the time, you’re supposed to not be curious. And I didn’t really like how that was marketed to me.

But from my perspective, Carolyn is obviously a big part of it was really kind of around understanding that and then having that chance to go on my own diagnosis journey, which in itself caused lots of moments of reflection on my own experiences and how they’re played out, understanding my own strengths and really getting clear and appreciating the weaknesses as well. The things where I struggle and the challenges that I have. Those have become kind of part of who I am. And I found acceptance of those over the years, as I’ve become an adult and found things difficult and had support in some areas. But more than anything, it’s been something that has allowed me to start to understand myself more. It has taken some acceptance and some work to get there too, but has made m e even more of an advocate for the next generation to have that opportunity earlier. And, you know, come and grow into a world that is more accepting, more understanding and more likely to build the environments and conditions for them to bring their amazing talents, bring them to the fore, and to be able to feel, you know, an element of comfort and understanding around the challenges that they do have as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, that’s really interesting that, your diagnosis, one getting it through your son’s experience. And I feel like sometimes for, for people in our, our generation, I hear that story pretty often. There’s a lot of times people discover it through their children getting diagnosed officially, and then start to think about it with their own lives. I think it’s great that it’s kind of kicked off this self-reflection and kind of looking back on your life.

And I’ve always found it interesting that a lot of these characteristics that I feel like the business world actively tries to cultivate, like being curious and asking questions and the concept of play with, through, you know, in the concept of innovation are things that a lot of autistic people do naturally as adults, but for some reason, businesses haven’t quite made the connection yet between like, oh, Hey, these are somewhat common autistic strengths, and maybe we can, you know, integrate that into business. It’s so critical for innovation and growth, things like that. That’s really cool.

Lee Chambers: Yeah. And I think businesses themselves are starting to see that and understand it, but it requires the conditions and it requires breaking of structures and how things have always been done to actually, even for many autistic individuals to get the opportunity to be in the workplace, doing work that’s meaningful to them where they’re able to use those strengths. Because if we look honestly at the wide spectrum of every autistic individual being different, which they are. And it’s, there are similarities across, well generalizations sometimes don’t help, but we’ve got to be honest, that unlock and realize that those strengths quite often need certain conditions to be cultivated and to be, you know, most utilized. And if we, I suppose, if we didn’t look at the very traditional processes of things like recruitment into sourcing candidates, into interviews, and then into onboarding and then into organizational cultures.

All those things need to be looked at about how they evolve as well. To be more, ultimately fairer, certain neurodiverse individuals, uh, to be, you know, so that there’s not the barriers. Because quite often, you know, people who are neurodivergent might struggle in an interview process in a traditional sense, but they might be able to potentially show what they can do if the interview process isn’t as, isn’t as kind of sit, sit down and be bombarded with questions. I mean, to be honest, most people don’t really enjoy that.

And the bigger scheme of things is, are you interviewing for someone to be an interviewer? Because quite often, the person who interviews best is really good at being interviewed. Might not be the best person for the actual job, because very few jobs are actually interviewing and being interviewed. If you’re a politician, maybe. But for many jobs, it’s actually the skills that you have, and is there a place for you to utilize those skills? Many businesses are starting to become more aware and they are creating conditions that are better and are more adaptive and more flexible, but that’s a continuing process. And, and I think now, you know, companies are in different places with that, but the ones that have started to really embrace it are really now, especially in these, uh, slightly chaotic and turbulent times, really in a beneficial position because they have people within the organization who think differently, who have that cognitive diversity to look at problems from different angles and come up with innovative and novel solutions to the challenges that we face as a species. And that in itself is a competitive advantage. But you’ve got to put the work in to create the foundations, really the soil for neurodivergent people to plant themselves in and then grow into amazing things.

Carolyn Kiel: You’re right. You have to have the right conditions. Because yeah, a lot of hiring processes and corporate culture just are not necessarily geared towards, well, one, sometimes the interviewing has nothing to do with the job at all. And as you said, a lot of people really don’t enjoy that process. It really is a totally skill and separate activity a lot of times from the job. So the companies that are really thinking about this critically and doing the work to get it right, and build those cultures, everything from hiring to, you know, the whole life span of your career are the ones that will really be able to find advantages in this chaotic world that we live in right now.

So, from your experience, I know you got diagnosed relatively later in life once your son did, but what was it like growing up for you as a undiagnosed autistic Black boy?

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So I think obviously I had an interesting upbringing from quite a low social economic background. My parents were teenagers when they had me. So I was quite the surprise. But my parents were always very supportive and wanted me to be able to achieve more than they would. And that was a kind of a positive foundation that was built from my parents and a certain work ethic.

So obviously from my perspective in education, I was able to excel in many ways, because of some of the skills that I have, and some of the strategies that I have as well. And that was kind of recognized quite early in my childhood. So I was very much pushed in that direction. I was, I suppose I was quite an interesting child. I could tell the time on an analog clock before I was three and, uh, I could play around with times tables and multiplication and division, you know, before I was five. But at the same time, I couldn’t tie my shoelaces until I was about nine. There was checks and balances there, and I have some strengths, which, you know, really had people thinking wow, that’s that’s really cool. But also at the same time, there were things that, basic things that I couldn’t do. And I probably quite often be found with my clothes on the wrong way and things like that.

So, you know, my childhood was, I look back and reflect on it as a positive time, even though, you know, along that way, I was bullied sometimes as well. Sometimes I was quite isolated and I did have a few friends and I did kind of model and mask quite well socially. So I wasn’t always kind of lonely and on my own.

But as I kind of came into a world of digital adoption, I found some solace in working with computers because I was able to suddenly have access to, you know, games where I could create worlds. I was able to then look at creating games themselves and kind of play with word processing and spreadsheets, and just be able to kind of do some of those things that I found enjoyable, everyone else thought was crazy.

But really from my perspective, the whole understanding of neurodiversity and even diversity as a whole back when I was a child was very little. And I think that some of my traits around, you know, being quite curious, asking lots of questions, not really having a lot of boundaries in terms of child to adult communication. I would talk to adults like I was an adult as well. I literally had this idea that there shouldn’t really be those social structures where I couldn’t ask adults questions. They had information and experience that I wanted to know. So I felt I had, I had the right and authority to ask, ask any adult I wanted any question I wanted. And obviously that got me into some really interesting situations, sometimes some really good ones. And, you know, as a seven year old talking to important people. you were, you were seen as somebody who was brave and courageous and you know, really kind of outgoing. But at the same time, it got me in trouble because a lots of adults don’t really like to be interrogated by this little child. So on one side, I was this curious trailblazer of a child. On the other side, I had a bad attitude, didn’t respect adults and, and was generally at times considered not the best behaved because I didn’t fit the societal behavioral norms of a, of a little child.

And I think that kind of reflecting back, there are some elements of that as well, where race and neurodivergence intersect. Because so much of the research around autism, for example, was, was on privileged white boys and how it manifested for them. They were part of the studies, they were part of the research, and I think that sometimes some of the, kind of the racial microaggression elements around, you know, Black people being a bit aggressive when they are sometimes more assertive and some of those challenges around, you know, it being seen, Black people being seen as not respecting boundaries in the same way. Just sort of those stereotypes that existed in, in some people’s minds meant that I was then labeled, you know, as having a bit of a bad attitude and not being respectful and being a bit aggressive and a bit confrontational.

And in, even in my own challenges around communication. And that obviously then amplified that a little bit and me not being able to pick up those social signals as easily and, and aspects around body language to see when people had kind of had enough. So that then I suppose, led to me sometimes being labeled as, as, as awkward, as difficult, and as a bit of a challenging person to be around. It was difficult, especially making the adolescent to adult transition. And I did have some, you know, struggles at university with my own mental health. It was partially due to that, but obviously that’s easier to reflect upon now, understanding a lot more about myself, a lot more about the world and a lot, a bit more about how diversity, neurodiversity, inclusion, how, how things intersect. So I suppose looking and reflecting back, I see things now that I didn’t really realize at the time. But I suppose it’s interesting to kind of see and understand and now see how I can bring that experience forward to help other people as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. There are really a lot of intersections. Sometimes once you get that diagnosis or once you have that discovery that you’re autistic, you kind of look back and like, oh, I kind of see how all the pieces fit together.

And yeah, the intersection with race is another big one, because as you said, a lot of, well, almost all the research is based on like little white boys and still a lot of the public’s perception still of autistic people, they think of like a white man or, oh, you know, a white child. Fortunately with, with social media, more people like you and people from all different backgrounds who are autistic are sharing their experiences, so people can learn more. Autism it’s not limited to any particular race or gender or background or anything like that. So it’s really good to hear these stories.

Lee Chambers: Yeah, and I think it’s important as well, especially around, around how it, how it kind of manifests in females. That’s something that has had such little focus over the years to a point where, you know, there’s so many women that I know who are finally on that pathway to diagnosis, you know, in their forties and fifties. Brilliant women who’ve achieved amazing things, but they’ve always had the handbrake on, because they’ve always, you know, they’ve been able to model and mask their way through things. They’ve utilized what often is more nuance around communication and more on higher levels of emotional intelligence to, to be there any point where they could be, could have been diagnosed against the, again, the backdrop of such little research into how it does, you know, appear within women. It’s one of the things that I’m passionate about as well is that if we probably take a real step back a lot, I believe that the kind of neurodivergent split will be 50 50.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Lee Chambers: And it’s, it’s a spectrum, a spectrum condition that impacts the whole spectrum of human beings. And it’s, it’s going to be such an interesting journey to see how that comes across. As you know, so many grown women start to get diagnoses and are able to understand themselves and feel an element of liberation, and they’re able to come together and actually collaborate with other neurodivergent women to create amazing spaces and do amazing things.

Because again, it’s that intersection where if we honestly look at a lot of the challenges we face in the world, and we look at how the structure of the world is, it’s the privileged who are sat down and trying to come up with solutions, you know, rooms full of old white men, more often than not, with a lot of group think. And their idea of heavy innovation is to tweak a few things. And a group of neurodivergent women will take a problem and they will look at it from a number of different angles and get to a solution really quickly. So a group of neurodivergent women can probably solve most of the world’s problems, sat around a table. That’s my honest opinion. So yeah. That’s, that’s what I’m advocating for.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, no, yeah. That’s wonderful. And yeah, I’m, I’m hearing so many stories now of women who are, you know, as you said around forties, fifties, who are starting to share their stories of discovery around realizing they’re autistic and looking back on their lives and how they reflect, they see that in their strengths and their challenges. So, yeah, it’s really powerful and exciting to learn about.

So, you mentioned having to mask growing up, and I’m always interested in that obviously from an autistic point of view, but when you put race into the mixture as well. What did masking look like for you?

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So it was interesting because obviously when you’re in those kind of school scenarios, for example, you’re trying to mirror into a particular social group where you want to fit in, you want to belong. And I suppose for me, I have like the duality of trying to fit a, a typical, young Black male character. So that would have influences around, around sport, around entertainment, music, culture. And obviously I didn’t really fit those traditional Black male stereotypes either. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t into rapping. I was, I was into wrapping my head around sorting data on a computer. And it was very, very different cause I, I, part of my masking was trying to take home some of that stuff to bring into my kind of everyday conversations to make me look like that hip trendy Black kid, when actually I was as far away from that kind of typical stereotype.

But the challenge was that obviously, in the UK here in the 1980s and nineties, when I was growing up, so many male Black role models were sports focused, entertainment focused, movie stars, musicians and rappers. And that was about it. I didn’t see any role models for Black males that in the business world, in science and technology, there wasn’t really anyone.

So I was then trying to role model and I suppose, model them and mask things such as my stimming, obviously trying to take myself off to places to be able to do that where I wasn’t going to be questioned about it. One of the biggest challenge for me, sensory, was eating. So I’ve always struggled with textures, tastes, which is really difficult, you know, back in a world of lesser food diversity, and also a very rigid eating patterns, that presented challenges. And, you know, there’d be times I’d be forced to eat things and I’d be, I’d be in floods of tears because that’s, it’s complete sensory overload. But again, it was trying to, you know, find situations where I could potentially eat in private and just find a bit of, find space. You know, we, we, we were in schools with bright strip lights all day. You, you just had to try and get a sensory break somehow because there wasn’t any understanding. You couldn’t ask for one. So you had to kind of come up with strategies about how you could, how you could model communication of others, so you could fit in to groups. How you could stand there sometimes on the outside and analyze and try and try and work your way in by using tactics that other people would use.

And also trying to, trying to dampen down some of the things that you were doing, that you felt weren’t societaly accepted or societal norms, um, and trying to sometimes almost model other people, and mask some of the things that might make you feel like you would be excluded.

There’s that kind of multifaceted element to it where it kind of led to me trying to at times, construct a bit of a personality that wasn’t actually me, so I could fit in. And also then becoming a bit of a chameleon in different places, trying to pull on those different aspects, which I thought would get me to fit in, and almost using other people’s kind of frameworks. How have they managed to get acceptance? What are the words that they use? What did they speak about? How do they dress? And when that creates a level of kind of fluidity within you, you actually forget who your foundations are, or you only do it when you’re aware from everyone behind the scenes.

And that’s very, very tiring because you’re constantly trying to be someone else. And you’re constantly asking yourself questions and having those processes, you know, that most people just do things without thinking. You’re thinking everything through. I remember that there’d be times when I’d just be very, very tired from doing that.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. You always have that in your consciousness and it burns up your cognitive processes. So yeah, that is really challenging. Wow.

You’ve had a really eclectic career, done a lot of different things and had a lot of really great achievements along the way. So how did you, I wanted to ask, like, how did you choose your career? But honestly, your career has been just so varied that I don’t know, it’s like one particular, like I’m going to do this! But sort of what, what was your experience like when you went into the working world? Like how did you experience working in organizations or did you just kind of go out on your own and be an entrepreneur early on? Or what was that like?

Lee Chambers: To give a little reference, I did international business psychology at university, and that for me, obviously blended together two of my interests around how businesses work and how people work. And that, for me, felt like something that was beneficial because the variety of things that I studied, everything from languages and communication to comparative politics, across international business law, and then the foundations of business, you know, marketing, sales, personal development. So I got a lot of variety, which is why I picked to do that. I obviously had my mental health challenges right in the middle of my university journey and dropped out. I had to spend a year working on myself to get myself back and, and graduated.

And for me coming from, you know, that kind of lower socioeconomic background, I was the first one in my whole family to go to university. And it was important for me, it was kind of highlighted and kind of I suppose promoted that I would go and get a profession and be able to support myself and also potentially support my family as well, and set an example to my younger brothers. So I went out into financial services on a graduate scheme and I graduated in 2007. So this was awesome that I started in the fall, and six months left the economic crash hits, the credit crunch and the recession. So many of my superiors were packing up their desks. Then was a few weeks later, it was also me. So my kind of corporate career was pretty much cut short at that point.

But at the same time, I’d been trying to jam myself into this corporate hole, this corporate ship. And I was like, uh, I was like a triangle and the corporate, corporate ship was lots of squares. So I felt lots of resistance and lots of challenge. And I was young and I was trying to be flexible, but I was already starting to struggle at the point where, you know, I was made redundant anyway. So from that I kind of, I suppose I had to go home and live with my parents again while I reassessed where I was gonna make the next turn, and that was to go and work within local government. So that was a slower pace. And again, it was full of very rigid traditional structures that didn’t necessarily fit my kind of innovative, different way of thinking. But, because it was slower. There was less resistance, but that did allow me the foundations to start my first business.

And that’s really where that kind of took off in a big way because in a lot of ways, the timing of that business was very good, working in the video game industry in 2008 into 2009, and that grew very quickly. But I was still working alongside it because I struggled to identify as an entrepreneur or as a business owner, because it was just something I was doing and I was doing it in the gaps and some of the, kind of the, we don’t like not the biggest fan of kind of labels around neurodiversity and things such as high functioning, but I was able to operate a business between the gaps of my nine to five job, and I was also doing education around that as well. So I was able to kind of do that quite effectively because of the pace and tempo and the ease of which I was able to work the business.

For a number of years, I was doing that. I then got to a point where austerity hit in local government. So there was cost-cutting. So I left because I didn’t want to take away someone else’s potential wage. But then I started working at a careers charity to give back to those people who’ve been made redundant, who, you know, I had only a few years before, and taking them on a bit of a journey to understand what they enjoyed, what they liked, how they could build a meaningful and purposeful career. During that period, I found quite an enjoyment for empowering and helping others. But was still running the business.

And I suppose the big change point for me, Carolyn was when I became unwell. In 2014, my immune system failed, and suddenly my body kind of shut down. And when I was back up and running, I couldn’t walk. So I had to learn to walk again. And that was a real time of transition point for me to be able to realize, ultimately, you know, I have a successful business, but it wasn’t making a difference to the world. It wasn’t making a positive impact to society and, you know, the wider ecosystem. And during my recovery, which I spent, you know, alongside my children, I really wanted to, you know, leave them with a positive legacy, and actually use my experience to make a difference for lived-on expertise.

So that kind of led me to end up setting up my workplace wellbeing business that I own today. I launched that after my son and daughter started school because I spent a period of four years at home with them running my business in the gaps, but actually finding just how much you can learn by being an active and present parent, and how the bond that I’ve built with my children is something that no amount of time in the future or no amount of money or status or power can actually ever give me.

Now I enjoy working with a range of companies, helping them to look at wellbeing strategically, look at some of the things that they should be considering, look at the potential challenges they might face, but also ensuring that people within an organization feel like they are appreciated and valued, that they have got, you know, and are enabled to be as healthy as possible.

And that a business itself understands how powerful wellbeing is as a, as a competitive advantage and as a way to create a healthy business and a resilient business through having people who do connect to the business feel like they belong. And also, you know, are able to do their best work for the company and enjoy their life outside of work as well.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. And that’s so important. I know companies talk about really struggling with that a lot, and there’s a lot of interest, at least in the States, from, from companies who want to cultivate that culture of wellbeing and have employees who are engaged in taking care of themselves.

What’s it like actually working with these companies? Do they get surprised sometimes with some of the recommendations that you have for them in terms of how much they need to change or what they need to change? Generally how receptive are companies once you actually start getting into the hard work with them?

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So I think one of the big things is we do with clients is, the first thing we do is really assess their readiness because different companies are at different stages of readiness. And one of the big things is that it’s easy to look at it as ok, so we’ll bring in some solutions, we’ll do mental health workshops. We’ll bring fruit bowls in, we’ll organize activities and interventions. But actually, workplace wellbeing and corporate health starts with the business itself understanding what they want to achieve. So there is buy-in from the team. Understanding what it means to them, so they know how to communicate that to the teams. And actually it starts with how the business runs itself. It starts with people’s workload. It starts with people’s understanding of the role and the clarity around it. It starts with quality communication that’s concise. That can be comprehended. And so often it starts with people feeling valued and appreciated, feeling that they belong there and can be human at work, and actually start to be able to have processes that allow them to know what they’re doing and give them some autonomy to be able to go and do it.

And that’s kind of counter to a lot of the stuff you kind of hear out there about, oh, well you just need to bring in a motivational workshop and everyone will feel well. Well, actually wellbeing a skill, and you need to build the foundations as a company to give people the best opportunity to be well. And obviously the work I do is really looking at some of those people and process aspects before we even start looking at adding that value through, you know, how can we help and empower people to become more skilled at looking after themselves and how can a company offer and provide that support and be proactive in terms of building that rather than reactive.

So I must say, I mean, here in the UK and I do have a few clients in, in North America as well, is that those who are ready to open the bonnet and start to look at the business a bit are the ones who get the most benefit. The ones who just want: I want a solution, I want to tick a box, I want some nice certificates and accreditations to say I’ve done it, but don’t actually start to measure it and embed it and find out how they can actually evolve it to become even better, they’re the ones who are not getting the benefit. Because they’re just ticking a box and just wanting to make it look shiny on the surface, and then, you know, shouts on social media about how nice the place is to work. And actually if you do it properly, It attracts talent.

You know what, Gen Z? A lot of them are: I don’t want to hear, I want to see it. I don’t want to know what you’ve done. I want to know what you’re going to do. And I don’t want fancy graphics and black squares and rainbow flags on your social media. I want to know what it’s like when people are not watching. And that’s such a big thing moving forward, because they are the next generation of talent and they are the curious questioning ones, just like I was, except it’s just how they’ve grown up because they live in a world of, of fake news and greenwashing. Trust is so important. And that’s one of the things around wellbeing is if people don’t trust the business, how can they ever be well? And how can they ever feel that they’re trusted to go and look after themselves? So there’s lots of different facets to it, but it’s all about where you are on that readiness. And sometimes companies need to actually do work on their culture before we even start doing work on their wellbeing.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So many different facets to it. It’s interesting that Gen Z is, it sounds like really, really demanding that authenticity. And, you know, they want to see your actions. It’s like a common phrase, it’s almost trite, about like, don’t tell me what you’re going to do, show me. But now the pressure’s on like really people really do want to see authentically, what are you really doing? And how are you making these safe and healthy cultures and environments and organizations where people can, can thrive and, and use their skills, and be well at the same time.

And you speak on a variety of different topics. You talk about gender equity and you talk about menopause as well. It was interesting because I don’t know anyone in a business context who talks about menopause. So tell me about what kind of things on that topic you talk about.

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So I think a big thing for me, Carolyn, is obviously in my work, I get to facilitate employees and find out things that are impacting them and things that would be supportive. And one of the big things that has come through is that a lot of companies are talking about gender parity at board level, talking about greater gender diversity in the teams. Getting that more divergent thinking in by having more experienced women. Now, obviously in, in my kind of role, what I generally see is that for a lot of women in the workplace, the barriers, the resistance, the obstacles they’ve had to scale, through everything from, you know, maternity to motherhood to menopause have really put them in a place where they’ve had a real journey to get to where they’ve got to within the career. And they’ve built really diverse and whole skill sets to be able to do that.

Now a lot of businesses are then saying, “oh, I’m losing, I’m losing my female talent, like what can I do?” And so often, it’s actually speaking to women. You know, I spoke to a number of women, you know, amazingly talented, you know, leaders and managers. And what they’re telling me, the things that I hear, you know, “I thought I had early onset dementia.” You know, ” my MD put me on, on antidepressants. They thought I had mental health issues. It didn’t do anything. I’d started the menopause.” These great women suddenly, they’re: ” I feel like I’ve lost all my confidence. They’re not putting in the necessary adaptations that I’ve asked for. And I don’t feel like I’ve asked for a lot.” Things around, “I’ve been put on performance management, but they’ve not asked why, they’ve not asked how they can support me. Or they’ve even put me on disciplinaries, or I’ve lost my job because, you know, I’ve not been treated fairly.” So for me, constantly hearing these, you know, highly capable, highly competent women telling me these things and that businesses have just almost ignored them and not really considered it has made me actually quite passionate about speaking to businesses about it.

And for me, it’s, it makes sense. It impacts 51% of the population directly in the world. And it indirectly impacts everybody. And that’s a big thing that I like to speak about because it’s not directly impacted me in my own life so far, but ultimately it indirectly impacts everyone. It could be your colleagues, could be your family. It could be within your community. It could be someone above you, someone who you collaborate with, could be your clients. It could be someone who you manage on your team. But it’s such a little piece of education that empowers you to be able to ask that question of support and help to normalize conversations, because it still holds quite a stigma.

And within businesses, we need to be able to create spaces where people can speak openly and be able to start to solve some potential support. Because it’s still misunderstood across the medical field. It’s still highly, highly misunderstood in business. And when I get businesses saying, you know, how can I look at wellbeing strategically? Why can’t we attract the female talent that we need? Why are we losing our female senior leaders, the, the, they’re best stuff we’ve got? The menopause is one of the things that they need to look at. And I feel that businesses have become more receptive to it.

It’s very interesting having, having a young male talk about it in the business setting. That creates a bit of a disruptive ripple. But it does get people talking and no one can shut me down saying, oh, here she goes again. Or any of the old antiquated attitudes towards women in the workplace. That can’t be used against me. I can use my privilege as a man to start those conversations. Then that then forms those wider conversations around gendered health challenges that men don’t face. So men don’t have a reference point. And when you know, there’s a heavy, you know, sector or industry, or even senior leadership team, that’s focused around males. It opens up those conversations about how they can get that different thinking and those highly skilled women to actually be more receptive to joining.

And ultimately, that starts to make me think about the kind of my generation of, you know, early millennials who are more curious about these things, because we will be the future leaders and managers. And if they can be more receptive to it, by the time they get into positions, hopefully we will see more gender parity at board level and in senior leadership teams. We will start to see more female led businesses getting the funding and being respected on a global platform as they should be. Because I want to be part of that change. And I feel that it just makes sense. It just makes logical sense. My autistic brain says this is something that has been ignored, and it’s like a fire burning in front of you, and people just say, “eh, just leave it, just leave it.”

And that’s how I see it. So that’s why I’m so passionate about it. And that wider gendered health piece is part of the book that I’m writing with a fellow American psychologist looking at why, why don’t we address these things that only impact women? Is it because the health system has been created for men? And then men are really bad accessing it, which is a paradox in itself.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. I would imagine a lot of women because of those challenges and those misunderstandings may, you know, even when you’re going through menopause, you may not realize that you’re changing because it’s menopause. Either your doctor’s telling you it’s something else or you’re a different age than you would expect to go through it. So it’s almost like, you know, building that business culture that’s supportive, or at least curious and asks questions without the person having to know or disclose that they’re going through menopause. It’s kind of like, neurodiversity that, you know, a lot of people don’t realize that they’re neurodivergent in the workplace. But you know, we don’t have to go around and like diagnose and designate everyone. It’s about building that culture where everyone can thrive and everyone can be curious about why people are doing things and support them.

Lee Chambers: Yeah. And I think that, that’s the thing that I love to foster is that curiosity, that culture of care and that real question of, if someone is struggling, instead of stepping in and trying to fix them, instead of stepping in and trying to punish them, step in and say, how can we support you? Is there anything that we can do? And in that wider educational piece about menopause, it helps to kind of see what support would be helpful and how you can be an ally to a cause, which is still heavily stigmatized. But if you can create those spaces to start to normalize those conversations, if you can bring in a wider educational and awareness piece for your organization, then we start to move aware from the ridiculous stereotypes and jokes that are made, that are at the end of the day, microaggressions on a regular basis against women. It’s like, it just doesn’t play out.

And obviously even for some of the more kind of multilayered situations where we’ve got, you know, transgender individuals who might potentially be going through the menopause and puberty at the same time. And even down to men themselves, who’ve had to take hormonal medication due to numerous conditions. They actually go through the menopause as well, due to that. And there’s a, there’s a bigger group of them out there than you would expect. So it’s, it’s often in that wider educational piece that it impacts people and anything that impacts people we should have at least a base level of awareness and understanding of, which then creates that curiosity for how we can support people as they’re going through it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. Being supportive and, and asking questions is so important for that. Just a great way to support people. Absolutely.

So, you’ve written on LinkedIn about wanting to share your experiences more as a Black autistic man, and I would imagine this is part of your advocacy around neurodiversity and really just sort of sharing what it’s really like to be autistic and what it’s like to be Black and autistic. So I guess, what are your goals for your advocacy around neurodiversity?

Lee Chambers: So I suppose one of my goals is to really get people to think about things intersectionally. And that is, that is from a wellbeing perspective. Because wellbeing is also intersectional from a neurodiversity perspective. To see how, you know, the intersections do impact people differently.

And I suppose the biggest thing is obviously my, my son being autistic himself. I want him to come into a world where people are more accepting, understanding, are able to help him foster the conditions where he can achieve what his potential. But more than anything, be part of that change around, you know, how Black autistic individuals are seen. Because I suppose what was really sad is when I Googled “Black autistic man” and Google tries to understand the world by pulling all these data points together, to try and get a collective machine understanding of what someone is trying to search for or how to manifest a particular phrase. And when you search for “Black autistic man,” it brings up stories about Black autistic men who’ve been killed, who’ve been jailed. It’s almost exclusively negative about, you know, about how Black autistic men are violent. About how there are, you know, compelled towards crime, about how they are naive and then have become the victims of crime, and how they’ve been, you know, conned and taken advantage of.

And I would love in the future for someone to Google that phrase who maybe just got the diagnosis or were young and on that journey, and actually saw Black autistic individuals who were excelling in the fields that they work in, that were great role models, and to show you what you could potentially become, and that your strong interests might actually lead you to become, you know, maybe a thought leader in a field. Or maybe become someone who’s able to do something that’s meaningful and purposeful to them.

And even understanding that for some autistic individuals, they have significant challenges, but just feeling that there are other people out there who’ve got challenges who’ve not ended up in a really bad place, who’ve just made the world a better place. And hopefully you can kind of also then show people that, you know, the, the stereotype around Black autistic individuals isn’t that they are awkward and difficult and aggressive and violent and abusive, and all these negative terms that often can come with being a Black individual. But actually we are curious, you know, we are questioners, and want to understand the word. And more than ever, a space for us to bring out our multiple different aspects of thinking and different experiences together, to be able to make the world a better place for everybody. Because if we’re able to look at what different groups need and how different groups can be supported, we can find a better way of doing that for every single individual on the planet.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. We need to get more of those stories and experiences out there in the world. And I feel like we have, we still have a long way to go, but I think that the work you’re doing by, you know, as, as people share their stories and, and people at large become more aware of what autism really looks like in adults. And even just being aware of the fact that like, oh, autism is, you know, in all races, all genders, all backgrounds. And then from there, just seeing the diversity of the autistic experience. Diversity even in the Black autistic experience and rewiring those algorithms that, that come up on Google that drives so much of our understanding as well. So it’s really important.

So, yeah. Lee, thank you so much for sharing your story on the show today. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the work that you do or read more about your neurodiversity advocacy?

Lee Chambers: Yeah. So the best place to go would be to my website, which is LeeChambers.org. And there you’ll find information about my businesses, my own personal journey, my own blog, but also you’ll find all my social media handles there. I am most active on LinkedIn, where I do share a lot of stories, a lot of my journey, and really how that links into the work that I do today.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay. Perfect. I’ll put your website’s link in the show notes so people can click on it from there. Awesome. Yeah. Well, Lee, as we’re closing out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Lee Chambers: So from my perspective, I’m always happy to speak about this, to share my experience, to see how my business can potentially assist yours on that wellbeing and inclusion journey. But more than anything, just share divergent stories and always be curious about how you can support rather than stepping straight into punishment. Because that curiosity and that aspect of play is really how we’re going to solve the challenges that we face as a species. So let’s embrace being that child more often than we do and sometimes let’s just see the brilliance that people can bring.

Carolyn Kiel: Wonderful. Well, thanks so much Lee again, for being on the show and sharing your story. I appreciate it.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.