Episode 147: Phenomenally Autistic – with Ayanna Davis

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The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Hello! I’ve got a great show for you today, where I’m talking to Ayanna Davis, a multitalented autistic artist and autism advocate who goes by Phenomenallyautistic on social media. Ayanna talks about how her involvement in the visual and performing arts from a young age helped her get through the difficulties she experienced as undiagnosed autistic child. We talk about some of her big creative projects too, as well as what life is like for her now, as an autistic woman with multiple chronic illnesses living through a pandemic.

In this episode, Ayanna also shares several of the misconceptions that Black autistic women face in society, when seeking diagnosis, and in the healthcare system. As a Black woman, she has experienced many of these herself. Even though autism does not discriminate, there are many other factors in society that impact how autistic people are diagnosed, viewed and treated based on their race, gender, and other parts of their identity or background. So Ayanna will talk about that today too.

I’m really passionate about sharing stories from autistic and other neurodivergent people of all identities and backgrounds. If you like hearing those stories too, then why not take a moment to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app? You can also find more stories like this on my website, beyond6seconds.net – you can listen to my episodes there, and get advance access to my latest episodes by signing up for my free email newsletter.

Thanks again for being a Beyond 6 Seconds listener. And now, here’s my episode with Ayanna.

Today I’m very excited to be speaking with Ayanna Davis. She’s also known as phenomenallyautistic on social media. She’s an autism advocate who was born and raised in Westchester County, New York. Along with being autistic, she has survived over 300 seizures, is living with chronic illnesses and has three auto-immune diseases, but she doesn’t let that stop her from spreading her messages of self-love, joy, equality, diversity, inclusion, and autism awareness and acceptance through the arts. She’s also a children’s book illustrator, designer, former choreographer and lover of all performing arts. Ayanna, welcome to the podcast.

Ayanna Davis: Hello.

Carolyn Kiel: So nice to talk with you. I’m really interested to hear your story. Tell me about how you got your autism diagnosis. What was that process like?

Ayanna Davis: I was in the hospital for issues that had nothing to do with autism. My doctors saw that I wasn’t really connecting with anybody. Like, I always say they noticed I was different. So they spoke to my dad and they were like, we want to have her evaluated.

So we did like, they did the evaluation. They brought like an outside team in and they did the evaluation and a few days later, the evaluation by the way is, it’s not easy. It’s it’s long. Like they let me take breaks, but it was, it was really hard. And they spoke to my dad about it, asking him like, what kind of child I was and how was I when I was a child. And then they came back a few days later and they sat down with me, my dad, my treatment team. And that’s basically when we found out that I was autistic.

Carolyn Kiel: Did it surprise you to find out?

Ayanna Davis: It didn’t surprise me because it was mentioned before with the regular therapist, but he didn’t like do anything to help me find out if I was. So I really didn’t think nothing of it. I was just like, okay, whatever. And I just moved on with my life. And so it wasn’t, it wasn’t a surprise, but it wasn’t what I wanted to hear.

Carolyn Kiel: What was it like growing up as a Black girl with undiagnosed autism?

Ayanna Davis: Yeah, it was, it was interesting.

It wasn’t very fun, but I didn’t have a horrible childhood. As you know, I was always involved in some type of arts and I feel like that’s what saved me, but being the, the quiet, the shy. I’m not shy, I’m introverted, but I’m not shy. Not having a lot of friends, not trying to make friends because I was like terrified of like human interactions. Having a hard time with the noises and people saying “she’s picky, she needs to eat more” because we didn’t know that I was just having like, touch aversion, tastes aversion, smell sensitivities, which most autistic people do. So it was definitely challenging.

And in the back of your mind, you’re always like, “well, what’s wrong with me? Why am I like this?” So it was a lot of me hearing myself asking in the back of my head, “what’s wrong with me? Why am I like this?”

Carolyn Kiel: Did you feel like you had to mask or hide parts of yourself when you were growing up?

Ayanna Davis: Yes, I did mask. And for those who don’t know what autistic masking is, it’s just basically trying to conceal your autism traits to appear more neurotypical. Which is another reason why girls are not diagnosed as much as boys or as soon as boys because girls have better masking skills. So I was always masking unless I was just like home where I could just be myself and didn’t have to worry about making other people feel uncomfortable or people saying, well, “what’s wrong with her? Why is she acting like that?” So I pretty much masked my entire childhood. I didn’t know I was doing it at the time.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. It’s funny that sometimes we don’t realize that we’re even doing it, it’s just so ingrained or deep in our minds. Yeah. Wow. What kind of supports did you get growing up? Did you get any kind of supports in school or elsewhere, or was it just sort of just trying to fit in and manage things as they come?

Ayanna Davis: You mean like special support from school?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Like I don’t know anything around like, you know, sensory?

Ayanna Davis: No, not at all. I went to school every day and was tortured by all the noise and all the sensory overload because, you know, I’m a, I’m a millennial, so it’s just like nobody thought of autism at that time, especially in Black girls. So it was just like, go to school everyday, deal with the noise, get through your day. Wake up and do it again the next day. So it, it like, because it was just like something that nobody really ever heard of, as far as like everybody that I knew. You know, my parents and their parents. So, and also, I was an artist and a lot of artists stay to themselves and just like to be left alone so they can create art. So it was, it was a lot of reasons why sometimes people were just like, “oh, well, you know, she, she’s an artist, leave her alone. She’s fine, leave her alone.” And even, it was the same thing in school. My favorite teacher was my art teacher, my drama teacher. So it was just, it was just like art. Thank you.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. So it sounds like you discovered your passion for the arts pretty early in your childhood?

Ayanna Davis: Yes, actually before, before I started school. I was about three years old and I would always find one of my dad’s legal pads. Because you know, he had all types of meetings and things that he organized for his shows. And he said he would get to his meetings, open up his pads, and I had like drew pictures all over his notes.

And he said one particular incident that he remembers. He took me for a ride because I had a lot of energy and he was like, “oh, you know, maybe she’ll relax.” We went past a building. And he said that like, when I got home, I drew the building with like the same amount of number of windows as the building that we went past. He told me later on, and then when I got older, he was like, “I was so freaked out. I went back to the building and I had your picture with me and I counted the windows.” So it’s, it’s always been like a way for me to escape and not deal with the reality that I didn’t understand.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, that’s, that’s really amazing. And you’re really involved with all kinds of arts, so, you know, visual arts, but also performing arts and dancing and yeah. So I guess, do you have a particular favorite type of art, whether it’s visual, performing or, or just sort of everything?

Ayanna Davis: I like digital art. Which is visual. But it’s, it’s tough because like I’m a theater lover. I did plays when I was younger and I actually wrote a play when I was too. So it’s hard if I had to choose a favorite, but those would be my two favorites.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow, that, that’s so cool. So, and you continue to be involved in the arts in a lot of different projects, so, yeah. And I understand your oh, you mentioned in your bio that you are a children’s book illustrator. So how did you get into illustrating for children’s books?

Ayanna Davis: I I did a calendar with a publisher and the, the publisher she spoke to me, she had a, a small boutique company and she asked me, she was like, do you want to do a children’s book to match your calendar? And I was like, sure, like as long as I was able to draw, I was like, okay, sure, let’s go for it. And then I ended up getting like a really good literary agent. He doesn’t do it anymore, so I’m not like with him. But once I started like posting and people started seeing it. I’ve actually illustrated more than 17 books, but you know how everything that you do doesn’t work out? So, but there are 17 that are published. So I did my book first to match my calendar. It’s not in print anymore, but that was kind of how it started. And then the literary, like kid lit kid illustration industry is very small. So then people would just start reaching out asking if I could be involved in their project, and that was kind of how it happened. I never really went out looking for it. It kind of found me.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow, that’s great. And you know, you have a social media presence of, you mentioned before phenomenallyautistic, where you, you share your art, all kinds of art and you also share your autism advocacy as well. So is that how people usually find you and connect with you, or how do you meet people through that?

Ayanna Davis: How do I meet people for my art?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, for art.

Ayanna Davis: I post a lot of my art online or they’ll see a book that I’ve done and they’ll find me that way. So it’s mostly through social media. I don’t know how people used to find me before, but like, before when I didn’t have an agent, people still used to find me. But yeah, it’s, it’s, I post a lot of my art there just because like I do art therapy every day. So I always have like a lot of illustrations, so I just like put them on my my Instagram story most of the time. I have a few drawing videos on TikTok, but I haven’t put one up in a while, I don’t know why. But yeah, people usually find me through social media.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I don’t even know how we found people before social media. It’s like, I remember back in the day, but now that that’s great. It’s a great medium to be able to share all of your different art and video and all different kinds of things.

Yeah. And you’re also, you’ve done choreography as well, which is really cool. So yeah. What types of events or things like that have you done choreography for?

Ayanna Davis: Well, my working students have been seen on BET, ABC Family, WPIX 11. They’ve opened for like big name music stars. They performed at the United Nations when I was honored. They performed for Westchester County when I got my proclamation. It’s just so much. It’s hard for me to remember. Because sometimes like, if people that I know listen to a podcast I did, they’re like, “you forgot this. You forgot that.” I’m like, “well, it was a lot. I can’t remember everything.”

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. That is a lot. And do you usually work with one group of people who are dancers?

Ayanna Davis: I had my own dance program when I was 14. And from there I was asked by one of the youth bureaus out here in Westchester County and the Parks and Recreation to do dance programs for them. So I did that. And then I joined a theater group out here and I assisted the drama department and I was head of the choreography dance department. So it’s been like my own thing. And then working with others.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. That’s really amazing that you’ve you did, you’ve done so much even, you know, when you were still in school and school age that you were already accomplishing so much. And yeah, I know you’ve got a long list of honors. It would be hard for me to remember them all too. You’ve just done so much in your life and that is really awesome. Wow.

So you were mentioning when we first started talking that, you know, that autism wasn’t really something that was picked up in, in people of your age growing up and, you know, it’s, I think people are a little more aware of it now. I mean, I hope so in terms of getting people diagnosed when they’re much younger. And obviously there are a lot of kind of misconceptions and things about autistic people in general, autistic women, and then certainly autistic Black women and people of color as well. And I think you talk about some of this in your advocacy. What are the biggest misconceptions that you’ve had to kind of challenge or fight about being a Black autistic woman?

Ayanna Davis: That most of the time, it’s just like, you’re looked at it just like an angry Black woman instead of being looked at as someone who may have a disorder After being diagnosed, it was like, you don’t really get any help or resources, which I’ve seen other racial groups get. But, and I always say this I’m like, Black women are the forgotten community within the autism community. Because it’s like, you don’t want to put the face of a Black woman with autism. You always, they they they go, they’re using like 30 year old research. So it’s like, you need to update that, because little white boys are not the only group of individuals who are autistic. And also like when you turn 18, you don’t grow out of your autism, you have it for the rest of your life. But the biggest stereotype that I do get is that like Black girls, Black women, they’re not autistic. So that’s why a lot of Black women and girls go undiagnosed for so long, if they’re even given a diagnosis as well, because the healthcare industry they really don’t have a lot of respect for Black women either.

I’ve seen people who have gone to get tested for autism. And they’ve been like labeled bipolar and schizophrenic. And just as an autistic person myself, I can look at them and be like, I know that’s not what the problem is. I do think they’re autistic, but you know, I’m not a doctor, but it’s just like, it is hard to get diagnosed as an adult Black woman, even a Black child. Because I was in school. Nobody said anything, you know?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And it’s it’s something that, especially with the healthcare system in general, there’s just so much bias and racism and sexism sort of wound into it in general. And then especially, you know, it touches on autism just as it touches on all other things.

Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned that you also live with several other chronic conditions and auto-immune illnesses. How has that impacted your life sort of along with your autism and how you, how you do things day to day?

Ayanna Davis: Well, how I live day to day is just what you said, living day to day and taking it one day at a time on remaining grateful, always trying to you know, look at the bright side of things, even when others may not see there’s any type of bright side, there’s always a bright side.

So you know, like I haven’t been hospitalized for months at a time in almost two years, so. I’ve been to the hospital and I’ve been to the ER, but I haven’t been hospitalized for long periods of time like I had been years ago. So like, to me, that’s, that’s bright. That’s the bright side. So getting through day to day is what helps me. Being mindful, which I learned from cognitive behavioral therapy, to be mindful. If you can control yourself in the moment and live moment to moment, your day will be a lot easier. And I learned that from cognitive behavioral therapy.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh yeah. Being present, I guess that helps a lot of us not worrying too much about the future or about the past, as much as we can.

I’m just thinking during the pandemic, because I know just access to healthcare in general has been really challenging, especially, you know, for the past two years of the pandemic and access is tough. How has the pandemic been in general for you? Has it changed how you live and practice your art day to day?

Ayanna Davis: It hasn’t affected my art. If anything, it’s made me do it more because at one point I was kind of really kind of neglecting it. I was just kinda like existing. I wasn’t really living. So I, the pandemic kind of like showed me that there are things that you can do to get through this pandemic. So I turned back to my art. It was a hard adjustment because you know, being autistic, we thrive off of routine. So then, you know, the pandemic comes in and there is no routine, like something’s changing every week. What you can do, what you can’t do. So it was, it was definitely an adjustment. It’s like, now we’re kind of in the phase, like, okay, we’re all sick of this, when is this going away. But I’ve made more art during the pandemic than I had in a very long time.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, that’s. Yeah. I mean, that’s great, especially, and you mentioned one of your favorite mediums is digital art. So that translates well for this time, this time in history. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

What big goals do you have, for whether it’s your art or your advocacy, what big goals do you still have that you want to accomplish in your life?

Ayanna Davis: I want to destigmatize some of the stigmas that there are on autism. People don’t really know a lot about it. They only know what they’ve heard or what they’ve seen on TV. Like people are like, oh, I saw Rain Man. Okay. Well, I’m not Rain Man. Every autistic person isn’t Rain Man. Just like some of the, some of the stigmas I feel we need to do away with, especially because every autistic person is different. So, we might have similar traits, but we’re not the same because it’s a spectrum. And I always say that to people. I’m like, you do know how big a spectrum is? So it’s definitely to, you know, speak up for more acceptance and try to get rid of some of those stigmas because some of them are kind of hurtful.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more that we see autistic people in the media, in, in all different disciplines. I guess there’s a stereotype that a lot of autistic people are only interested in computer coding and technology, science, but you know, we’ve got arts,

Ayanna Davis: Video games.

Carolyn Kiel: Video games, exactly. But, you know, we’ve got artists and writers and musicians and people working in the government, like all kinds of, you know, all kinds of fields. And it’s important to, to see that. And it sounds like that, you know, by having a, a strong social media presence that people can kind of see your example in all of the, the great art you’re creating and you know, this is one of many things that autistic people can do. And, you know, as you said, it’s a spectrum and we’re all different. So we all have different talents.

You have a social media presence, phenomenallyautistic, and I think I’ve seen you mainly on Instagram where you, you share a lot of your, of your art and such. So what, what is the best way for people to find you, if they want to follow your art or learn more about your advocacy, the best way to find you on social media?

Ayanna Davis: I would say Instagram and TikTok. I haven’t been on either as much lately because I haven’t been feeling well, but you know, I’m, I’m gonna make like a, like a intentional and conscious effort to like, try to be a little bit more active, but I just, you know, had a rough month, but yeah, Instagram and TikTok.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, cool. Yeah. I’ll put links to your Instagram and TikTok accounts in the show notes so that people can just click on it and, and visit and follow you from those links. So, yeah. Ayanna, thank you so much for sharing your story and talking about a lot of the great art and the work that you’re doing on my show. As we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Ayanna Davis: I would just like them to know, to give a person a chance. Don’t give them a chance because they’re autistic. Give them a chance because they are a person.

And I just re-released my 2019 coloring book, We Are Magical. It’s on Amazon, but the link is in the profiles of like all of my social media profiles.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay. Very cool. I’ll direct people to, to that link so they can find your coloring book. That is awesome. All right. Yeah. Thanks again, Ayanna. It was great talking with you and yeah. Thank you so much for the great art and the advocacy work that you do.

Ayanna Davis: Thank you.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks.

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