Episode 224: Fighting stigma about schizophrenia – with Michelle Hammer

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn Kiel: Before we get started with today’s episode, I want to give you a quick heads-up about some of the content. During this conversation, my guest talks about her experience with paranoia, hallucinations, delusions, and suicidal thoughts. This episode also contains mentions of drug use and homelessness. If any of those are difficult topics for you, please use your discretion when listening to this episode.

On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Michelle Hammer. Michelle is a schizophrenia activist who spends her time passionately fighting stigma. She’s a New York City native who is featured in the WebMD documentary “Voices,” which was nominated for a Tribeca X Award at the Tribeca Film Festival.

Michelle was diagnosed with schizophrenia at 22 after a misdiagnosis of bipolar at age 18. At 27, Michelle decided to use her artistic talents and fearless personality to do something that could benefit the mental health community. In May 2015, she founded a mental health focused clothing brand called Schizophrenic.NYC with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health.

Michelle has also been featured in many publications like Mashable, The Daily Mail, Stylist, and BuzzFeed, and has also been featured on TV networks like ABC, NBC, and CBS. Michelle, welcome to the podcast.

Michelle Hammer: Thank you for having me. I’m so lucky to be here.

Carolyn Kiel: I’m really happy to have you here. And I’m excited to talk about schizophrenia and what lived experience of schizophrenia can feel like on my show, because it’s, it’s not something that I’ve had an opportunity to, to talk about with anyone up until this point. So very excited to learn about your mission and your own story with it.

So I guess starting out, when did you start to experience symptoms of schizophrenia and what were kind of those early signs of it?

Michelle Hammer: You know, it’s really a good question of when I really did start symptoms because, you know, I was undiagnosed for so long, but I feel like I had symptoms somewhere starting around in high school where I was getting really, really, really paranoid, hearing like a voice telling me that everyone, everything I did was dumb. Everything I said was dumb. Don’t speak. And it was kind of like a voice in my head, I think in me made me very paranoid, but I thought that everyone had this voice. I didn’t realize it was just me. I thought everyone always had it, but so I, I didn’t think there was anything wrong with me, like by hearing this voice. I just thought everything was wrong with me according to what the voice was telling me to do.

The thing is during high school, like, you know, my mom, she was trying to help me because she saw my behavior and stuff. A lot of isolation, a lot of just getting angry, things like, things that weren’t usual me. But every time she took me to a therapist or anything, like I, I just thought she was trying to sabotage me, hurt me, want me dead in some way.

So that brings me to, I go to college and I’m like, “yeah, I’m free of my mom. She was always trying to hurt me.” Everything’s fine for a while. And then I started to believe my roommate, my best friend was trying to hurt me, sabotage me or want me dead, in some way ruin my life. And then it just snapped. And I was like, how am I having these same exact thoughts about my roommate that I had about my mom? And it was like, there is something up with me, because this doesn’t make any sense. This makes no sense!

And that’s when I went to the student health center for an appointment with a therapist. And basically he went down the checklist and was like, “you’re bipolar. Here’s a pamphlet.” So I was like, okay. Like that’s how, but looking back like, is that really, like he really just went down a checklist and then gave me a pamphlet and said “make an appointment with the school psychiatrist.” Like, I, you know, for like an 18 year old, I’m not sure that’s the best way that that could be done. You know? And I hope things have changed because that’s not like, you know, and there’s something about those pamphlets, like that girl on the cover, she did not look happy. Like, can we get some joyous pamphlets? Like, you know, you can like, something nicer than that. I have a thing about these pamphlets they give you. Because of that pamphlet that I was given, I was like, this, this doesn’t look good! You know?

Carolyn Kiel: Wow.

Michelle Hammer: Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can imagine just, yeah, being 18 and away from home and, and you’re having an issue and getting a pamphlet that looks scary. It’s like, you know, I’m not sure I would be, if it were me, that I would be inclined to uh, do any follow ups from there.

I would just be like, oh no, what’s happening? Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Right? So, so, I mean, that didn’t work out very well cause I’m not bipolar. So the meds I got did not help me. And I wasn’t even aware that you’re supposed to try many medications before they find the ones that worked. I wasn’t sure I was supposed to be feeling, I was very confused.

So, I mean, through college, I was hospitalized like three separate times and they, it was all horrible times, so, you know, you kind of just learned to keep your mouth shut when you do stupid things, that’s really what I learned. But then after college, like I, the thing is, in college I eventually found a doctor that gave me a medication that just kept me very calm and that’s really all I needed because I was very anxious. So it just kept me calm and that was what I needed then.

But then after college, I didn’t see him. I wasn’t on those meds. And then I found a new doctor. A very strange older, like 70 year old kindly British lady that I was like, how did I find this lady? Like what’s going on here? But then she led me to my psychiatrist who I like because he holds me accountable to things. He just says it straightforward, which is how I am. So I’m like, okay, somebody that can actually go back and forth. And then he diagnosed me with schizophrenia and I was like, hmm, right. I was like, okay.

At first I was upset, but then like, I was at dinner with like my three friends from college that I lived with for all those years. And I said to them, I was like, guys, so I found that I have schizophrenia. And they all just looked at me with this look and they’re like, “yeah, um, isn’t that what you had the whole time? Like that could have not been more obvious.” And like, um, one of them was like, “yeah, we told you that!” So I was like, if my best friends already knew and didn’t care, why do I care about any negative reactions that I have from other people that I don’t like or I don’t care about, you know? So it’s kind of like, okay, fine. All right.

Carolyn Kiel: And why did it take professionals, um, why did they have trouble diagnosing it when your friends figured it out long before?

Michelle Hammer: I mean, I, I really didn’t talk that much to professionals. I was very just like, all right, just give me this medicine. Okay. All right. Okay. Good. Whatever, whatever, whatever.

You know, I wasn’t really chatty. That’s why this guy who is so straightforward, is like, “no, you’re answering my question!” And I was like, okay, fine. You know? That’s how I could actually speak. Cause I was just very, always never wanted to talk before.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And when you were, it sounded like one of the first sort of early signs you had was around paranoia and sort of hallucinations. So I would imagine that could potentially be a barrier to finding help. If you are thinking that everyone’s out to get you, then why would you reach out and talk about what’s going on?

Michelle Hammer: Exactly. It’s like people don’t, people can’t understand that sometimes, it’s like, why didn’t you speak? Why didn’t you get help? Why didn’t you, I’m like, I was paranoid. But what if you were paranoid? Why didn’t you say you were paranoid? But like you’re paranoid. You don’t tell anyone you’re paranoid and you usually don’t realize you’re paranoid. You think you’re right. You know?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Paranoid people just think that they’re right. They don’t think they’re paranoid.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: They do think everyone hates them. They’re not paranoid that everyone hates them. They believe everyone hates them.

So then it’s like and then oh, you didn’t talk to the therapist. Okay, but you’re you’re saying you’re not going to tell my mom, but I don’t believe you. And then there’s always, they always said so we’re not going to tell your mom anything unless you’re thinking you’re hurting yourself or hurting others. When I was very, I hated my life. I wanted to die. So I was like, well, I’m not going to talk to you then. Cause I do want to die.

Carolyn Kiel: And they probably would tell your mother if you said that.

Michelle Hammer: Exactly! So therefore I said nothing. You just told me exactly why I shouldn’t speak to you. So that’s why I didn’t speak to you. You, you, that’s why. Why don’t you speak to me? You just, I, you just told me why I shouldn’t talk to you. That’s why I’m not talking to you. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. So yeah, that makes it, yeah, it makes it really difficult. And glad that you found that one therapist who was straightforward enough that you felt comfortable at least talking with and finding the right diagnosis. Cause that’s, yeah. Wow. So important. Yeah.

So then you know, if you’re having hallucinations that feel real, like how do you at some point sort of be able to recognize that, you know, this is a hallucination? And is it through medication or therapy or how did that work for you?

Michelle Hammer: I think it’s more like through medication. Because like, a lot of what I suffer is really delusions, like really believing that things happen when they didn’t happen. Or just making up like, oh, yesterday this happened. They’re like, “what are you talking about?” Or, Oh, you told me about that person. They’re like, “I never told you about them. And they don’t do that.” Sometimes I’ll just make up a story about a person that somebody is friends with, when that never, they’re not like that at all. They never told me anything about them. It’s like, I, I still will do things like that.

But in the past, I would make up way more than that. I’d be like, no, you called me and we talked about this. No, you, that happened. But then didn’t you send me a letter at sleepaway camp when I was working there? What are you? And they’re like, “what are you talking about?” Or I’d be in like in the back of a classroom and I would just start talking to myself. People turn around. “Are you okay? What are you laughing at?” Oh, sorry, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like not paying attention in class. “Who are you talking to? Are you on the phone?” I was like, in high school, I don’t have a phone. I don’t, what are you talking about? And people say “You’re talking to yourself.” I didn’t even know.

So somehow like I, i, I eventually figured it out really with medication that like, some stuff was real and some stuff is not real, but sometimes I still get pretty mixed up with certain things. Like some stuff still happens all the time. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: And with medication, does that change the type of symptoms? Like I don’t know how to say, do the, like, do the voices get nicer or do they get quieter or does that change?

Michelle Hammer: Well I mean, they’re much less severe and angry and much less paranoid and less debilitating. Like I can live instead of like sleeping all day and crying. I can like live a life. You know? I might still hear voices or see things, but they’re not ruining my entire existence. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, so I mean that’s, yeah, that’s important and I think that’s what people, I don’t know, may, may not understand sort of what medication can do and again, I’m sure it depends on person to person, but

Michelle Hammer: Yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: You know, it, it can certainly help. And even if the symptoms don’t completely go away, at least as you said, you can live a life and manage through things. Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: A lot of people ask me, why do I still talk to myself or talk to hallucinations if I’m on medicine? And it’s like, I try to explain all the time. I get asked that so many times! And I keep on saying, it helps my, it helps me so much, like so much, but I still have them. If I was medicated more, maybe they would completely go away, but maybe I would have absolutely no personality whatsoever.

So it’s kind of like a give and a take. Like I can live like this, you know? I don’t want to be over medicated. I don’t want to be under medicated. I’m good how I am, you know? I’m on actually on a lot of meds right now. So being on more meds would be like, Really? Like really? You know, because already people are like, Whoa, when they see like all of them, they’re like, Whoa, there. And I’m like, I just go, some are doubles, some are doubles, some are doubles. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Yeah. So, you know, you have really devoted your life and your business to advocating for schizophrenia and mental health in general and really trying to remove the stigma around, um, you know, mental illness and schizophrenia. And you’ve started your business Schizophrenic.NYC. Like what first inspired you to start that business?

Michelle Hammer: I mean, honestly, like in New York City, you can find a graphic designer everywhere. And in five years, I lost about 10 different jobs. And it wasn’t because of my inability to do the actual work of graphic and web design. It was all of my cognitive skills were just messing me up the entire time. Responding to certain emails in the right way, acting professional, listening to people, understanding a conversation, going to a meeting and comprehending what was said in the meeting. Some of that stuff just got so mixed up and I just kept losing jobs.

And also like my nighttime med can make it so hard to wake up in the morning, I would consistently come in late. And employers really don’t like that. So I would just lose jobs all the time.

So then I was like, you know what, I need to create my own business. And I want to tell everyone that I have schizophrenia because this is the most annoying thing: the biggest part about me, I have to keep secret from people? That’s so stupid. So I just wanted to do it in the biggest, boldest way possible.

And I came up with this business, Schizophrenic.NYC: Don’t be paranoid, you look great. My doctor was like, “are you sure you want to do this? Like, are you sure you want to do this?” And I was like, no, that’s what I want to do. That’s what I want to do. And then I told somebody I was dating at the time who I never told that I was schizophrenic. And then he’s like, “no, you’re not.” I go, no, no, I am. He was like, “no, you’re not.” I was like, no, I am. I am. And he was like, “okay, what? Okay, what? Eh?” Right, it just kinda worked.

And then like, I spent like $500 on some, on some tank tops. And my mom called my doctor saying, “what is she doing? Is she going crazy again?” Something like that. Something of those words. But I just kind of just, I just, I just went for it. Because I was like, I cannot keep a job. I have to do something on my own. And this is what I’m gonna do. And I don’t know how I did it, but somehow I did it. That’s what I do now.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. I’ve, I’ve seen your work online and I know you do a lot of, uh, like pop up shops in New York City. So you do like a whole variety of designs. You have a lot of sort of like really colorful and, um, thought provoking, like artistic patterns. And you also have ones around, um, like certain phrases and such. So, and the phrases, I think you mentioned one before is like, ” don’t be paranoid. You look great.”

Michelle Hammer: Yeah, yeah, that’s it. Yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: So, yeah. So how do you pick those, particularly the phrases? Because they might be things that some people are like afraid to say or afraid to joke about, but they’re like so perfect in starting conversations.

Michelle Hammer: Right. Yeah. Right. Like at first, at first, the “don’t be paranoid, you look great” was just the tagline. Cause I thought it would just be a funny tagline for like a schizophrenic clothing line type of thing. And then people thought it was really funny. So I put it on a shirt and then it was selling more than my other shirts. And I was like, well, this is working.

And then people wanted something more positive. And I was like, what should I do? And then I was like, “Oh, it’s not a delusion. You are incredible.” and I came up with that shirt. And then of course, I remember there was a comment. “Do you have anything more negative about the negative?” I was like, really? I just came out with the, look, look at the posts, people! Scroll a little bit, maybe. Scroll! You know?

So like things just kind of just came up as they did about differently, like different opportunities that were coming around with different people. It just kind of like happened. And, and you never know what people are going to buy, when I do pop up. I’ve popped up like all over New York City in different spots. You never know what’s going to happen when people are shopping. I’ve tried to come up with an algorithm, but it never makes sense. Sometimes people love these ones. Sometimes people like these ones. You never know.

And then of course I have the pillboxes which sell like crazy, which is awesome. Because yeah, they just have my, like my artwork on them or the phrases ones. So, um, that’s a fun one. Cause who doesn’t want a pretty pillbox? You know what I’m saying?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Everyone could use a pillbox. And so, yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Everybody loves them. Cause they’re cool. Cause the whole thing was, I could not find a pill box to fit all of my meds without it opening in my bag. Or I had to go to like Duane Reade and find a plastic, ugly, like pill box. And I was like, this makes me feel like I’m sick. I don’t want to feel like I’m sick. So I was like, I’m going to make my own. So that’s what I did.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then integrating with art is again, you know, it’s, it’s taking away the sort of like medicalization of it in a way and just saying like, this is an accessory now, like this is so cool.

Michelle Hammer: Exactly! Right? Exactly! Or not like an ugly, like clear plastic thing that looks like, yeah, I was like, and then there’s a little mirror inside and I always go, look good, feel good. Look good, feel good. That’s what I like to say. Yeah.

Carolyn Kiel: And you also do patterns around like Rorschach tests, but they’re, it’s like a really artistic twist on the Rorschach.

So like, how did you get that idea and what’s the significance of that?

Michelle Hammer: I mean, that was my original idea. That’s like the original thing that I came up with. And the thing was, cause the Rorschach test is usually like plain black, but when a person with schizophrenia looks at that test or goes through life, things are seen from a different perspective. So by putting my artwork in that test, now everyone sees it from a different perspective, getting you to think differently and start that discussion. Cause only through discussion can we try to reduce or end stigma. So that was kind of the idea behind that.

And that was my original plan, but then people were liking the text tees more. So I, you never know who’s buying what, so you never know.

But that was the original plan. That was, I used to just sell those in various different colors. People liked them. But people, and I’ve tried to make deals. You know, you can never know what’s going to sell when you’re on the street of New York City, the streets of New York City!

Carolyn Kiel: There’s like a whole, you know, it’s such, you know, literally a very diverse community in every possible way. And like, literally, you never know, as you said, who’s going to stop by on any given day.

Michelle Hammer: New York is diverse. And then there’s always tourists.

Carolyn Kiel: Mm hmm.

Michelle Hammer: Tourists from around the world. I feel like I’ve met people from all over the freaking world, everywhere, everywhere you can imagine, I’ve met them because they have walked by my pop up shop.

Mm hmm. Yes.

Carolyn Kiel: Do you ever get people who come over and are like completely confused or offended or have like a strange reaction to your stuff?

Michelle Hammer: I’ve gotten so many people who are confused or just like, “what is this?” Or like, “can you explain this to me? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And then once I tell them that I have schizophrenia, they usually back off and they’re like, “oh, all right. All right, all right, all right, all right.” But like, yeah, that does, that that’s happened a bunch of times. Yeah, the thing, they’re like, “is this a joke?” Or like, you know, like, they’re like, “what is this?” And one time one slammed his hands on my table and he was like yelling. And then it was like, and I kind of explained, so he was like, “so you have schizophrenia?” And I was like, yeah. He goes, “oh, you’re very brave.” And then he turned around and walked away.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, geez!

Michelle Hammer: I was like, well, that was the nicest way anyone could have spoken to me, I guess.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow!

Michelle Hammer: All right. Or people in the distance, like, “doesn’t she know there’s schizophrenic people here?” I’m like, do you want to talk about it? You know, do you want to learn?

And they’re like, “I’ve seen enough.” Well, you’ve seen enough, but you didn’t learn enough, obviously. You know?

Carolyn Kiel: People still have so much to learn about schizophrenia and what it is.

Michelle Hammer: I feel like people do have a lot to learn, but I feel like some people just don’t want to learn. You know? They just want to think what they want to think. And even when you tell them, they’re like, “Yeah, sure. Whatever. You’re, you’re just you. What about everybody else? You might be the exception. But yeah, what about everyone?” I’m like, well, not everyone you see talking to themselves has schizophrenia. They could just be on drugs, you know? So if you’re just associating that with schizophrenia, you’re wrong, you know? And maybe those people that have schizophrenia that are talking to themselves, that’s because you, you see that and then you can tell. What about everyone who you can’t tell? Right? You know what I’m saying?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. I think a lot of people assume that you can look at someone and tell. And you’ve probably experienced that too.

Michelle Hammer: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Like, like, “Oh, I couldn’t tell.” Oh, what does it look like? Tell me what it looks like then.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: There’s tons of people with schizophrenia all around the world living like successful lives, but you wouldn’t know that because they’re not telling you because of all your stigma!

Carolyn Kiel: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s really important to talk about it.

And I watched the, the segment of the Voices documentary and I remember you talking about, you know, when you were starting your business that you were, I think you had a, a sort of an observation on the subway where you saw someone who was talking to himself and sort of had this realization that like, how am I that much different from this other person?

Michelle Hammer: Right. Exactly. How am I so much different than that guy on the subway who was talking to himself? It was just cause I have like a support team and I just wanted to like give back, you know, to like the community. Cause it’s like, if, if, if I didn’t have like friends or family and like a doctor, I could be that dude on the subway talking to himself.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Because he doesn’t have that support. He’s alone by himself on the subway.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: And it’s sad.

Carolyn Kiel: And I think a lot of people don’t realize just how many people do have, like, mental health issues or mental illness who are also homeless. And a lot of times that’s a big reason why, is that there really is nowhere else for them to go a lot of times or no way for them to support themselves because they don’t have that support that other people may take for granted sometimes. So, yeah.

Michelle Hammer: I know. I’ve seen homeless people with hospital bracelets on. Because, you know, they might be brought there, but they don’t have insurance or any money, so how long are they going to be kept there? And even if they’re, they’re prescribed any kind of medication, how are they paying for it? And who’s following up to make sure they take their medication?

Carolyn Kiel: Right.

Michelle Hammer: What are you going to do? There’s nothing you can do. I’ve seen a homeless person in hospital scrubs, you know, more than once, you know? This guy didn’t even have any other clothes! He’s just walking down the street.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow.

Michelle Hammer: So it’s really sad. It’s really, really sad! Actually, when you see certain homeless people just like half naked running around screaming. Like I mean, I would assume that most of those people are on drugs, but there probably may be mental health, mental illness underneath that maybe, that’s why they’re on drugs in the first place. But like there used to be this girl that would run around Union Square half dress on half not, and she would just scream bloody murder, just half naked. Like, we just all knew her as that woman. Yeah. It’s sad.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. It is really important to sort of bring attention to these issues because there are things that either people have like, some people have their minds made up about it or they just have misconceptions. It is just important to really understand more about what’s really going on. And not just with individuals, but like the systemic problems like not having anywhere to go or not having health insurance or not having, you know, a safe place to take your meds or something, anything like that. Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Yeah, there’s no follow up care for people. If they don’t have a support team, there’s no follow up care. So, I mean, if you’re not, if you don’t even want to take your medication, you don’t have to, because no one’s trying to make you!

Carolyn Kiel: Mm hmm.

Michelle Hammer: You know?

Carolyn Kiel: And then I imagine if you’re taking your medication, you start to feel better. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t have to take my medication anymore.” Some people might think.

Michelle Hammer: There’s no one monitoring you. When there’s no one monitoring you, you’re just going to do whatever you want. Especially if you’re homeless, are you spending your money on your medication when you have no health insurance or are you going to buy food? With no health insurance, how much is that medication going to cost you?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: Think about that! That’s going to be hundreds and hundreds of dollars! You know, what homeless person can afford that? Like, that’s absurd to me!

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. So through Schizophrenic.NYC, your business, do you do other types of advocacy, um, you know, beyond selling? And I think you donate a percentage of your proceeds as well to mental health causes as well.

Michelle Hammer: Yeah. Um, I mean, other things that I do, like, like I, I go around, I give, I give talks and speeches and just a whole bunch of stuff like that. I just appear at different events popping up. Or just, just I’ll work with other companies designing certain things for whatever they’re doing, whatever mental health initiative they have. I’ve worked with other companies like Sound Mind Live and, um, other NAMIs, things like that. And, um, I’ve given speeches to like, um, like, like volunteer speeches, like different high schools around the area, things like that. So pretty much what I do, I do my, do the business, I give the chats. I talk to other businesses, blah, blah, blah. And I just have a fun time doing whatever I’m doing. Go with the flow, have fun while doing it.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. Very, very cool. And then through your advocacy, are there some like common either stereotypes or misconceptions about people who have schizophrenia that you hear frequently that you have to kind of debunk or, or talk about with people?

Michelle Hammer: I just think a lot of people think that schizophrenia, uh, like it’s the worst illness to have. You know, there’s always spectrums throughout different illnesses. Sometimes I have to be like, schizophrenia is not the worst illness you could have. And getting diagnosed with schizophrenia is not a bad thing because then you can get treated for the correct illness. I always try to remind people that when they get diagnosed and they’re very scared that they’ve been diagnosed, you know, it’s like, don’t be scared. You will now be treated for the correct illness.

And then there’s always like the whole violent, everyone thinks that people with schizophrenia are violent. And it’s like, No, not true. So I also try to show videos of myself. I just have the camera at me on the couch, and I show myself talking to myself, just talking to like hallucinations that I think are there. And the whole thing with that is, when people think like, what’s a schizophrenia like episode or whatever it is, they’ll think running around crazy half naked with a knife trying to hurt somebody. It’s like, no, see, that’s just me on my couch talking to no one. There it is, there I am, talking to nobody, not even interesting, just me talking to no one.

So, I’m just trying to show like, that’s what it is against what you actually think. There you go. Cause actually when you have schizophrenia, you’re more likely to be the victim of violence rather than the perpetrator. And people can’t understand that. They can’t wrap their minds around that because they think it’s automatically violent because they’re like, well, “all psychopaths are mentally ill.” Well, that might be true, but that doesn’t make all mentally ill people psychopaths. You know? So it doesn’t work both ways.

So I try to show people like, like, I just try to show people like, like, this is how boring it is. That’s me talking to myself on my couch. And then people are always like, they’re like, “why are you always on the couch?” And I’m like, that’s what I do when I’m home. Like I talk to myself in other places, but I don’t have a camera on me 24 7. They’re like, “it always seems to happen while you’re on your couch.” And I’m like, that’s where the camera is.

There’s no camera in this room right now. I don’t keep a camera in here. How many cameras do you want me to have? Like, I don’t, do I need a GoPro constantly with me? I like that’s not, I’m not gonna, if I know it’s on me, it’s not going to happen. Like I know it’s there, it’s probably not going to happen. Because I’ve tried, before I got the security camera, I was trying to get them and I would set up my camera and I, if I knew it was there, it never happened.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. Mm hmm. Yeah. People don’t realize that, you know, as a content creator, you’re not filming like every second of your life and showing every possible thing that ever happens. It’s kind of, it’s curated.

Michelle Hammer: People will be like, “well, you set the camera up and pressed record.” And I’m like, read the caption! It’s a security camera, always recording! It’s always recording! And then when I notice it, I go, Oh, ooh, that’s what I’m doing. And I stop talking to myself because I realize that I’m talking to myself because the camera’s right there. But I forget that, “how do you forget the camera’s there?” I’m like, people do that, people forget that they’re boiling water. I mean, you forget things, come on.

Carolyn Kiel: You’ve seen people on reality shows. They forget the camera’s there after like a day.

Michelle Hammer: Yeah, exactly. People on reality shows, they seriously forget that the camera is there, from what you see on reality shows! Come on now, please. Like, people do way worse than what I’m doing. Yeah, yeah, dude.

Carolyn Kiel: You know, it’s, it’s great that you’re sharing that because it is important to have those like visuals to remind people that, like, it’s not these, like, very extreme, misconceived notions. It really is, almost as you said, like, kind of boring, kind of mundane. Like, this is the everyday of what it mostly is like.

Michelle Hammer: Exactly. But, I mean, people, people like them. And actually, I get a lot of, um, like, messages from actors, saying like, “thank you very much. I’m I, I use your videos as like inspiration.”

And then I was at a coffee shop around the corner one day and I was sitting outside and a girl comes outside and goes, “excuse me, are you schizophrenia in New York City?” And I was like, yes. And she goes, “I use your videos as inspiration. I’m an actress. I work with the police and I, and I do acting and I act like, um, I’m going through a mental health struggle and we do like…” role play. Like in a situation where she acts like she is the one in distress and they have to come out. And she said she uses my videos as, as like inspiration for her acting. And I was at the coffee shop and she just came out. I was like, What? I was like, you seriously do that?

And then she was trying to pick my brain and I was like, I don’t know, honey. I was like, I just don’t know. She was like, “what do you want police to know?” I was like, what do I want police to know? I think, I think what I want police to know is like, I’m not trying to hurt you. I’m in distress cause I probably want to hurt myself more than really trying to hurt you. You know? That’s what I said to her. Is that true? I think it’s a true, I think it’s true. My, my, and my, my things with scuffles that I’ve had with police, I was trying to hurt myself. I wasn’t trying to hurt the cops. So what’s, why are you attacking me? You know what I’m saying?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah.

Michelle Hammer: So that was, I mean, so yeah. I, we kind of just segued over there and we’ve got a tangent right there, but yeah, so I’ve gotten DMS from actors.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow! That’s fascinating. I never would have thought that it could be like, um, acting inspiration. I don’t know. Right. Maybe a new, um, consulting side business someday. I don’t know if that’s interesting. Right. Oh my gosh. Wow.

So, I mean, Michelle, you’re doing so much to really, like, break stigma around mental illness and schizophrenia and, like, all, all of these more sort of, like, conditions that tend to be stigmatized and really, there’s so much misconceptions around them in society. Like, how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about your work or buy your artwork or come see you at a pop up sometime in New York City?

Michelle Hammer: Well first of all, check out my website, Schizophrenic.nyc, and then my Instagram is also schizophrenic.nyc and the TikTok is also schizophrenic.nyc, but then the YouTube is SchizophrenicNYC, no dot, cause it doesn’t allow it.

So if you follow me on social media, if you go to my website, you can buy stuff. The social media will let you know where I am whenever I’m popping up. I always post a picture, let people know. And yeah, just follow me on all of those and you’ll know where I am and you can just shop on my website and have, have fun, get whatever you want. Do it up.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And I’ll, I’ll put the links to your website and your socials in the show notes so that people can just get there really easily from from the podcast episode. And yeah, because your artwork it’s you know, it’s educational, it’s advocacy, and it’s also really beautiful. Like your patterns, it’s, it’s very colorful, it’s, you know, everyone should just go to the website and take a look because everything is just like, you know, definitely designs on there that, that you’ll love. So I absolutely enjoy. Yeah. Wonderful.

Michelle Hammer: Thank you so much. Thank you.

Carolyn Kiel: And Michelle, as we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Michelle Hammer: Um, I just always like to leave people with like, you know, don’t let stigma from society get in the way of living your best life and don’t let self stigma get in the way of living your dreams.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. Perfect. Great words to end on. Thank you, Michelle. It was really great having you on my podcast today.

Michelle Hammer: No problem. Love being here.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at Beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.