Episode 193: Trans and autistic inclusion at work – with Nate Shalev

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: This episode of Beyond 6 Seconds is sponsored by Misfit Media. Misfit Media is a podcast about queerness, disability, fatness and more with a focus on personal experience, knowledge and intracommunity topics. Tune in every Sunday for bite-sized episodes, in which the host Delta talks about all sorts of things ranging from being non-binary, neurodivergence or living in a fat body. Misfit Media is available wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Nate Shalev, a leading expert and advisor on inclusivity, helping to create workplace cultures where both businesses and people thrive. They were named a LinkedIn Top Voice and have been highlighted in the Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and more. Nate earned a BA from Barnard College of Columbia University and a Master’s from New York University. They are the founder of Revel Impact, a consultancy that specializes in social impact in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Nate, welcome to the podcast.

Nate Shalev: Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Really excited to hear more about your story and the type of work that you do.

You’re also autistic, and autism and neurodiversity is a big focus of this podcast. So would love to hear your story of like, when did you realize that you’re autistic?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, so, like, I think, like many others, this was very early in the pandemic, and I had been working full time at an organization at that point. And being able to work from home without an office, things just felt really comfortable for me in a way that was surprising. Everyone else was having a very hard time being at home and I was just thriving.

And then I was watching She-Ra, the animated show, with my wife and there’s Entrapta there, who is great autism representation. And so just realizing there were, there were many moments that resonated with me from her. And so my wife started researching her a little bit more and realized that she was created, autistic creators created her, and that she was meant to be like an autistic representation, and so that kind of started the rabbit hole of, oh, is this me? What does this mean? And so that is really what led to my journey of understanding that I was autistic. And then just being able to learn, to learn more, more about it and understand that this was something that was really a game changer for me.

Carolyn Kiel: Oh, wow. I didn’t realize She-Ra had an autistic written character. I’ll have to check that out. Very interesting! Cool!

So, yeah, so it’s obviously quite recent for you this realization. So, I guess you spent most of your life growing up not realizing that you’re autistic. So, I guess kind of looking back, you know, what was life like before you knew that you’re autistic?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, I mean, so there’s a very interesting, the intersections of identities about being trans and being autistic, there are higher rates of neurodivergence within gender expansive communities when compared to the general population. And so, like, some folks are saying that’s just because our brains, like, naturally work differently. And so that’s why we’re more into thinking about social norms in, in, in different ways. And so that was very much true throughout my life. So I don’t exactly know, you know, the kind of formation of gender identity, how much it intersects with, with autism and just the way that my brain is functioning. But throughout my life, like, being able to explore gender and go, going against these social norms was very much a part of my life. So that was like one, one bucket.

And the other bucket was understanding particularly around sensory input and being over stimulated. For years, I was going to professionals because I thought I had panic attacks and that I was being misdiagnosed over and over again with like a variety of a whole different host of things. When really now, once I understood that it was autism, I now have the tools to be able to navigate the world successfully in a way that I didn’t before. So pre diagnosis, everything was just very confusing and I didn’t quite understand why I was having such a hard time in different situations and now I’m at least able to understand why, why and how and what I can do about it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And I’d imagine being able to work from home, as you were saying before, and having more control over your sensory environment probably helped realize like, oh, hey, I feel different here and I can actually control this environment and it makes a difference.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, yeah, it sure does.

I remember once with the workplace, the office went through a whole renovation. And the renovation, and now it became an open office environment. They had painted the walls white and there was fluorescent lighting and the kitchen was now open. And so I came back and I was like, I cannot function here! And I couldn’t understand why all of my coworkers are like, “yeah, this is not the best renovation, but it’s fine.” And I was like, no, no, no, I need to leave this job immediately because I cannot, I actually cannot exist in this environment.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you do a lot of work now with other workplaces and organizations around diversity, equity, inclusion. So I’m, I’m really interested in, in your own experiences, even like leading up to starting your own practice, as a trans autistic person in the workplace. So I guess, what have your experiences in the working world been like up to this point?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, I started my own business because I didn’t find supportive environments for me in the organizations that I was in. I was primarily working within non profit and social impact organizations. And so even with those organizations who are set up to do good in the world, they weren’t able to support me in, in the workplace. And so this meant, it meant transphobia in the workplace in like subtle and not so subtle ways, and not being set up to kind of support autistic folks. So even thinking about our interview environments: when we start interviewing, being called my legal name, even when I was asked my name, being misgendered all the time, having to explain to recruiters that I was who I said it was because they were questioning whether or not there was a Nate actually on the other end of the phone. And so, even in the beginning, even before I got into the workplaces, those, those things started happening.

Within the workplace, having gender dress codes is always really tough. Having to just like navigate security all the time, and so, constantly having to educate coworkers around what it means to be trans, are all things that were just not, not, not set up for me to succeed.

And thinking about autism, not having structured meetings, having expectations around projects always being super fuzzy. You know, different things around communication norms always being tough. And so I was constantly trying to set up these structures that would allow me to succeed, which helped the organization succeed as well, because they were more efficient and more streamlined and all of that. But it just is so exhausting. And so not being able to actually be able to feel like I can grow in an organization and also consistently having these negative experiences, whether it was transphobic or misogynistic or, or, or not feeling like I was set up to work the best way I could really sparked me to, to start my own business.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it sounds like there’s so many challenges, even before you get into the actual workplace, just trying to get into the door, like through the interview process and, and even security you mentioned. So like, very basic things that people may not think of when they’re thinking of workplace dynamics. And then of course, you’ve got the whole interactions with your colleagues and management and that whole workplace dynamic as well.

And in your jobs, did you have experiences where you had to come out either as trans or autistic and like, you know, what were those experiences like?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, so with being trans, it’s, I don’t want to say tougher… in some ways I have to come out even before I’m there because of my legal name, because of my pronouns. And so if I want to actually be able to be who I am in my workplace from, from the very beginning, there’s some sense of, of having to assert a trans identity for me. Not all trans people but, but the way that my identity shows up in the workplace, it’s something that is kind of forced. That was always a conversation.

In terms of autism, I would say there’s a conversation around masking and what that looks like. And so I was consistently masking in the workplace and I don’t think, it was only until after I started my own business that I started to, I still work with some of my old employers as clients now, and so now I’m having the conversations with them about it. But in real time, I don’t think I ever disclosed autism when I was at an organization itself.

Carolyn Kiel: Wow. And how many years were you working in other organizations before you went off and started your own?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, I was in the, like, social impact space for over a decade.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. And it sounds like a couple different organizations. So you’ve had experiences in different places and it sounds like encountered a lot of the same issues and challenges.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, it was always like a different flavor of the same problem. And so it like, kind of manifested in, in different ways, but it was always the same kind of buckets, buckets of concerns.

Carolyn Kiel: And so I imagine that a lot of your own experiences really help fuel the work that you do today. So you now work with organizations. You have your own company where you help promote diversity, equity, inclusion, with also a focus on trans and neurodivergent identities as well. So tell me about the kind of work that you do to promote trans and neurodivergent inclusion in workplaces.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, absolutely. So I don’t want anyone else to have to go through what I went through. I don’t want anyone else to feel isolated or alone or unsure or confused or feel like they don’t have a place in their workplaces. And so that’s, that’s why I started this: to be, to be the one to be able to have the conversations with managers and teams to help take the burden off of, off of folks. I know for me, in almost every organization I was in, I had to do a training on gender, specifically so I can show up in the way that feels comfortable for me. And so I want to be that person now for others, so they don’t have to do that as well.

So, it really often will look like training and education and workshops or speaking sessions with managers or full teams or employee resource groups. If there’s a disability employee resource group or an LGBTQ resource group, those are the folks that will bring me in. It can look like advising around recruiting practices or even branding and marketing and communication guidelines. So it can, it can look like, I would say those are typically the buckets that it looks like around training and advising.

I really love doing things like a user manual activity with teams because what I, what I like to focus on is: we’re focusing on trans identities or LGBTQ identities, but everyone’s got a gender and a sexuality and that shows up for them at work. Similarly, when we’re thinking about autism and neurodivergence, we’re thinking about the different ways that our brain functions and how that impacts, how that impacts our ability to work. So even something like asking a question, if somebody prefers to be checked in all the time on a project, have a manager set up multiple calendar appointments for them, being really consistent with that and offering a lot of support, or if they prefer a manager to be entirely hands off and just let them do their thing and the employee will only check in when they need to. That question is often so polarizing and it’s so interesting when I ask it because people have such strong feelings about what they prefer. And sometimes it could be a matter of neurodivergence. It could be autism or ADHD or something like that. And folks want support with executive functioning, and that’s why they want their manager to help them prioritize or whatever they need. And some folks really just want to be able to have that space and only be able to check in when needed. So it’s even, even being able to frame it like that to say, we’re focusing on these specific identities, but it really helps everyone when we’re able to open up these conversations.

Carolyn Kiel: Because it sounds like conversations opening up between managers and individual contributors to help improve those management relationships is just something that’s really important and powerful. And I, I think a lot of workplaces really don’t spend a lot of like thoughtful time actually asking people what their preferences are, how they’d like to be communicated with, what kind of management techniques work best for them and what kind of work environment. So yeah, those are powerful conversations.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, that’s right. There’s just not an intentionality behind it. I think people understand that it’s important, but there is a hesitancy to proactively have the conversation because I don’t know why, right? Maybe it feels like there’s a, there’s a discomfort there around talking about preferences. Or, or there’s no space for it, it feels like there’s no space for it because there’s a deadline looming or we’ve got so much work to do. But really taking the space to even just carve out for these conversations can really help, help, help, help you reach those deadlines, help improve that relationship between teams.

Carolyn Kiel: And I think a lot of people bring into the workplace like, because, as you mentioned before, even a simple question, like, how often do you want me to check in, people have very strong opinions about. And I know I’ve found, you know, in previous roles, me just asking, like, ” when do you want me to get this done by?” Like just trying to get more certainty as an autistic person, like when is this due, have been met with like some very emotional reactions that I just wasn’t expecting. I’m like, “oh gee, I don’t know how to get this information.” So I guess having that structured conversation helps open it up and just telling people like, you know, this is not, I don’t know, this is not something to bring a lot of emotion into. It really is just helping us to better understand each other, I guess.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, a thousand percent. I think, I think that that’s spot on. I think there is also some trauma, I think, that often comes with these conversations. And so, because I entirely agree. I’m like, that seems like a super logical question. Tell me when I need to do this by. But if there were some experiences, past experiences around it, I don’t know, being like berated from a manager because you didn’t get it in on time. Or that conversation made it seem like you couldn’t do your job, and so that’s why like somebody might be hesitant to have it. I think that there’s a lot of these past experiences that are baked into these conversations that, I know for me, whenever I was asking those questions, it was very similarly I just want to get my job done and not quite understanding that there might have been all these other experiences that are now, that are now in our conversation that we don’t even know about.

Carolyn Kiel: Or there’s other context that you don’t have like, maybe there is no certain deadline or the manager doesn’t know for some other reason, and that kind of triggers something and then that’s upsetting. So, yeah, just understanding that whole wider context. And that really helps. I think that helps everyone like, like so many things about making work more accessible and opening up communication really just helps everyone in the end.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I mean, so many things of inclusion are exactly that. I often use even the example of gender inclusive bathrooms, that like, gender inclusive bathrooms specifically help trans folks, because now I’m able to have a space to go to the bathroom in your office, and you don’t have to worry about getting yelled at for being in the wrong bathroom, but it will also help a father who needs to bring his daughter to work one day, and needs to like, go to the bathroom, right? So it always helps. It helps everyone. I would say most inclusion initiatives focus on, on the people who need the most support and have been the most historically marginalized, but really end up benefiting us all.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as part of your training, do you also talk about allyship in the workplace? Because I’m just curious about if you have some general suggestions for how, whether you’re a coworker or someone in management, how you can be a good ally to trans and autistic people in the workplace.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, I sure do. I mean, the, the first thing with allyship that I say is to just assume you have a trans or autistic person in your workplace. Like, statistically, you probably do. But more so, you don’t, you don’t actually know, and also they might not actually know yet. So even when we’re thinking about trans folks, many trans people live as self, meaning when you meet a trans person, you only know them as the gender that they are. You don’t know about their trans experiences, you don’t know the sex they were assigned to birth, you don’t know anything about that, you only know them as, as the person that they are in front of you.

And also some trans folks don’t take any actions to transition at all, because gender identity, we’re thinking about our internal sense of gender, and so it’s just our gender as to who we are. So you don’t know, you don’t know a trans person just by looking at them.

And same thing with autistic folks, right? You don’t always know when you’ve met an autistic person, both because of, you know, so many autistic folks are masking and minimizing our autistic traits to be able to survive in the world, but also thinking about late diagnosis with so many people who are not cis men, right, because the diagnostic factors, so, so much focus on young boys. So, so many of us who are not young boys don’t actually know we’re autistic until much later in life. So even, so even your teams who might not know, that they are autistic, are autistic. And so the first step of allyship for me is always just to assume you already have folks in the room, whether or not they’ve disclosed, whether or not you know it, assume they are, and then act accordingly.

So what would it mean for this interview process if the person coming into my room was trans, what would I want to do? If they were autistic, what would I want to do? And then I encourage folks to think about things in, in buckets. So thinking about the sensory environment, thinking about executive functioning, thinking about our social and communication norms. I like those buckets because they can almost serve as checklists to say, okay, does this event have everything I need? Does this interview process have everything we need? And then of course, opening up the space to have the conversation.

Because everyone, I would say both gender, right, and neurodivergence exists on a spectrum. So not everyone will need the same thing, but encouraging and having really clear systems to be able to allow folks to ask for what they need and taking out that stigma and that bias around it.

Carolyn Kiel: Because it can be really scary for people to ask, honestly, for what they need, whether it’s in the interview process or asking for accommodations in the workplace, because I think a lot of people are concerned about, is this person going to view me differently after I tell them that I’m autistic, or trans. I think if you can build that flexibility or those structures into the whole process where people, where it’s just a very normal thing to ask and offer, or you’re proactively offering things in the interview process or parts of the workplace, it sounds like can be helpful for, well, again, really everyone, so yeah.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, that’s right. And it could even be something as simple as like asking for options. So for an interview process, like we can do the interview at 2 p. m. or 9 a. m. in the office or virtual. Like, what do you, what, what would be best for you? And so somebody can just say, I prefer 2 p. m. in the afternoon. You don’t have to say why. You don’t have to say, my routine means that this will be the best time for me or, or, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is. Being able to offer those options I think, I think is, is, is an easy way.

Or even just having systems in place that folks can be able to ask whether it’s an accommodation or something around trans inclusion. I’m thinking about changing names and pronouns really easily, as long as there’s a clear system in place that somebody can request that change in an email or change in a name that that makes it really easy for trans folks. But I also had somebody in a workshop say that they were going through a really tough marriage and didn’t want to see their last name anymore, and so having that easy process to change their name really helped them as well. So I think it’s like having the systems in place and making sure that we’re being proactive with the conversations themselves.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Absolutely. And then I guess just as a coworker, maybe you’re not responsible for interview processes or you’re not necessarily leading the culture of your organization and you know, you’re just working with your coworkers. What are some good tips for just being, I don’t know, just being a good ally at work?

Nate Shalev: Yeah. So I, it’s one of the reasons why I love working with, with workplaces themselves so much, because I think our workplaces offer us a really unique opportunity to create change and create supportive environments that we don’t have outside of our workplaces. So I can’t control if I’m walking down the street and somebody harasses me. I can’t control that, but I absolutely can control it in my workplace. And so our workplaces really allow us to be accountable for one another in ways that we don’t actually have outside. We can create these structures, we can create these systems. We want to show up and care for one another, in a way that actually can be very difficult outside of work.

And so I think even no matter where somebody is in their organization or on their team, they can really have that influence. You can create that supportive environment, even if it’s just one on one with a coworker or with your teams at large. I very much think that we all have the ability to influence whatever sphere of influence we have. So if you’re on the marketing team, you can make sure all of your communications are inclusive, all of your branding is inclusive, all the images that you’re using are inclusive. If you’re on operations, you can make sure that, you know, all of your admin is, is super clear and that these, these, these project management structures are really clear. Your communication structures are really clear. And so you’re able, no matter really where you are, I think you can have that influence, and that can really make an impact. So, even if it is in that interpersonal 1 on 1, making sure your language is inclusive, making sure that you are there to support somebody or be that ally can really make all the difference because it can create this supportive space. And once we have one supportive space, it can really make us feel like we can take on, or we have the ability to navigate some of these other spaces that may be less supportive for us outside of our work.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, absolutely. And as you talk to organizations and give these trainings and consult with them, do you find that the organizations you work with are receptive to making these changes? Because I read on social media a lot of, you know, really great recommendations and what, what companies should be doing. But you’re actually working with the companies. So I’m curious, like what are companies reactions in general to these types of recommendations?

Nate Shalev: It’s, it’s a great question. The answer is twofold. I would say the first is most organizations who are bringing me in really want to make, already want to make the changes. So I’m not, I’m not somebody who’s convincing an organization that this is important. I’m not convincing them of like the business case for it. They are already there. They already think it’s important because they’re valuing their people. And so they’re already bought into understanding that this, that this is important. And so there is already that willingness to make the change. And also, I often see it only to a certain extent. So folks are really willing to make, I would say, internal changes on teams. Managers really want to support their teams better, and so are willing to immediately make changes as soon as possible.

And then once I would say that the the, like, larger the circle gets, the more resistance there is to changes that might be made. And so thinking about now, particularly within the US, all of the anti trans legislation that’s been happening. Folks are on board with making sure their, let’s say, their recruiting processes are inclusive and their teams are inclusive and they understand that. But when it, let’s say, comes to not having a teammate travel to one of these places, it, they’re, they’re much more resistant. Or when it comes to not having a relationship with an organization that is operating in a, in a, in a state or a country or wherever that is not trans inclusive, there’s much more resistance. And so I think once the stakes become higher and higher, that the resistance also grows.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I can totally see how it gets more complicated. The, as you said, the, the wider that the circle gets with that. Yeah, absolutely. But those are all important things for organizations to be thinking about. It, it really covers all of those you know, all those different areas. Wow. Yeah.

Well. Nate, thank you so much for sharing all of this really great information and sharing your own experience and your own story. Like, how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the type of work that you do?

Nate Shalev: Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is really the best place as I post a lot on LinkedIn sharing very similar kinds of stories and tips and recommendations. So LinkedIn is, is, is the best place, just Nate Shalev, my name. My, my website is RevelImpact.Com. And so both of those are, are great ways to stay in touch. I’ve got a newsletter if folks want to also get, get more of this kind of information.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay, great. I’ll put links to your LinkedIn profile and your website in the show notes that people can just click on it from there.

Nate Shalev: Amazing!

Carolyn Kiel: As we close out, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can do to help or support you?

Nate Shalev: No, I mean, I think that the main thing, if folks are listening and thinking about getting supports in the workplace and wanting to advocate for yourself, the only thing that I would say is that like, it is something that you deserve. You’re not asking for any sort of special treatment, whether it’s like your brain is functioning differently than the neurotypical folks in the workplace. That’s okay. You’re just asking for what you need to be able to be successful. So you are not the problem here. The system that you’re working within is the problem. And so if you are being hesitant for it because you feel like you’re asking for too much or you’re unsure about it, that’s the only message that, that I would, I would want to leave you with is to say that it is okay. It is something that you deserve. And we all just deserve to get the supports we need to, to be who we are and to be able to thrive in our workplaces.

Carolyn Kiel: Right. So important to remember. That’s great. Thanks again, Nate, for being on my podcast. It was great talking with you.

Nate Shalev: Yeah, thanks so much. This was really fun.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.