Episode 212: Working in tech as a Black autistic woman – with Martina Kuzenski

The episode transcript is below.

Carolyn Kiel: Welcome to Beyond 6 Seconds, the podcast that goes beyond the six second first impression to share the extraordinary stories of neurodivergent people. I’m your host, Carolyn Kiel.

Carolyn Kiel: On today’s episode, I’m speaking with Martina Kuzenski, a late diagnosed autistic woman who received her autism diagnosis at age 28 near the end of her master’s degree program. She’s an IT specialist for the federal government and has shared her experiences with others by being a mentor for the Pathways in Technology Early College High School, or P-TECH program, and by being a co author for the best selling book, “Ladies in Tech: Sharing Expertise for a Successful Career.” In 2022 and 2023, Martina hosted Disability Day of Mourning vigils at her church, but had to stop hosting the vigils when her grandparents health started to fail. You can find her blog posts about neurodivergence at DiaryOfSelf.wordpress.com/tag/neurodiversity. Martina, welcome to the podcast.

Martina Kuzenski: Hello. How are you doing today?

Carolyn Kiel: I’m good. I’m good. And I’m so excited to, to talk with you about your own story around realizing that you’re autistic and your experience working in tech. So I guess to start off, how did you find out that you’re autistic?

Martina Kuzenski: So probably the short answer is a therapist picked it up, which I was starting to suspect it at that point, but actually having a therapist recognize it was really surprising and a good thing. Unfortunately, because of the covid shutdowns, I had to wait a bit to actually get evaluated.

But really, the 1st time I really started suspecting it was probably in 2019 where my social inappropriateness, long story short, almost got me fired from my job. So I started seeing a therapist months after that, but I had to hop around different therapists because I had 2 therapists quit within the same year because therapy was not their full time job. So I decided to go to a therapist at a different place who, first visit said, well, you’re definitely neurodivergent.

It took a little bit of time to figure out which, although we know it’s possible to be neurodivergent in many different ways. But we ended up determining, Oh, it’s autism. Let’s look for a place that will evaluate you. Oh no, everything’s closed right now. But I got lucky that when things started opening up, I ended up getting an evaluation about a month after I called to be scheduled because a cancellation happened.

And there we go.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it can be really difficult, I guess, one, to find a therapist who is neurodiversity affirming, or just aware of, you know, autism in adults, and then finding a place that’s, you know, experienced and qualified with with diagnosing autism in adults. So, yeah, I can understand how how challenging and how much time it can take to find the right resources and supports. Yeah.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, my therapist is neurodivergent herself, which is probably how she was able to pick it up. However, she is not autistic. She has ADHD. But she says that many neurodivergent people can pretty much pick each other out from a crowd. And a therapist I had in the past, she noticed my issues with eye contact and made me start giving eye contact. So, I’m not too bad with eye contact for the most part because I was forced into it, but sometimes I’m thinking, do I really have to? I don’t feel like it.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it’s distracting, especially if it’s not something that comes naturally. So it’s like, I’m thinking of the eye contact and I’m forgetting what I want to say and things like that.

Yeah. So you just found out recently that you’re autistic, but obviously you, you grew up autistic without realizing it at the time. So I guess, as you look back on your childhood and your life to this point, like, what was it like for you growing up as an autistic child?

Martina Kuzenski: Well, I’d say when I was really little, I was sensitive to loud noises. Outgrew it kind of, not by choice, and then after I got diagnosed, I started having auditory sensitivities again. But I’d say that my childhood other than that was probably pretty typical, except for the fact that in first grade, my school wanted me to go to a different school that was specifically for people who were intellectually gifted.

They weren’t sure, was I getting extra tutoring at home to be ahead of the curve compared to everyone else? Or was I naturally like this, but my mom wanted me to have a typical childhood, so I ended up not going into a gifted program, which thinking about it, they probably would have noticed traits sooner and probably would have kicked me out because I think it’s, there’s still a myth that you can’t be autistic and smart.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I guess aside from the whole savant stereotype, it’s weird to have those two assumptions happening at the same time, but I, I can understand what you’re saying about that. Yeah.

I guess in terms of like friendships and social interactions, was there anything that you noticed felt different in those when you were growing up?

Martina Kuzenski: Not until high school, honestly. So I went to two different high schools because one high school had finished being built and I live closer to there. But 10th grade was the 1st time I didn’t make any new friends and I was put in therapy because of that. My mom will say it was not because of that. But the 1st therapist I had said it was because of that.

So, I think it was 10th grade when the social aspects of the autism started really being more of a hindrance because honestly, in the past, I had no issues. I was friends with the neighbors. I had many friends in elementary school. Not as much in middle school, but I still had at least many of them. It was just high school where, as I tell people, once there isn’t the compulsory friendship factor of everyone in your class has to be invited to your birthday party. And once people have different interests. Then it’s a case of who am I going to find who has those interests? Because I was not like a lot of the girls at my school. So that could have been a factor in that. I would not be exaggerating if I said I was the only girl at that school who did not carry a purse.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s interesting how the social expectations change as you go through different parts of your life. Like in, in grade school, yeah, it’s just different. And as you said, that sort of everybody together and everybody kind of hangs out and plays and goes to the parties with each other, that starts changing around middle school and, and puberty.

So it’s like the expectations socially change. So I can understand why it suddenly becomes harder in high school, when most of the girls are interested in certain things and, and you’re just not. So, yeah,

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, for me, I didn’t really start making friends in high school until 11th grade when I had joined color guard. So I had made some friends there, especially my senior year. And a lot of the friends I had, if not most of my friends were in the lower grades than me. And it probably didn’t help my senior year, too, where I was a freshman mentor, which seniors were nominated to be freshman mentors, and that meant that you were in the same homeroom as all the freshmen.

And it was senior year where most of my friends were freshmen, whether they were from color guard, they were from my homeroom, or we just all knew each other because someone knew someone from there.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, so, yeah, I can see how finding people through that common interest . That’s I think it’s a way a lot of us do wind up making and forming those friendships sometimes.

Yeah. So how did you develop your interest in technology? Because I know that’s your, your career now.

Martina Kuzenski: It was actually not my intention to go into tech at all. When I, starting from age 9, I wanted to be a doctor. Started as a nursing major in college. However, with the lack of structure of college compared to K through 12, I struggled a lot academically and because of GPA requirements, I was forced to change my major. I was going to go with Film, Video, and Theater, which is now at my school called Film and Moving Image. And I was going to choose between that and Business Communications, but mom was looking online and said, “Oh, you should do the major Computer Information Systems. Cause you’re on the computer all the time!”

And that’s how I got into tech. It ended up not being easy because I studied computer forensics under that major and you need an active security clearance if you want a job in that. So I was stuck ended up having my first job being a developer, and learning how to do that.

And I struggled a lot to the point that someone actually pulled me aside and said, “do you have a learning disability? Because you seem like you do.” And the guy who asked me that he’s diagnosed with multiple learning disabilities. So that’s what made me think, I really need to get this checked out. But my mom said there was nothing wrong with me, even though I was practically begging to figure out, is there something that we missed?

Carolyn Kiel: So, was the first time that you explored the potential of you being neurodivergent or having a learning disability or something like that, was that really during the pandemic, the first time you got to explore that as an adult or had you looked into it before then?

Martina Kuzenski: So that was in 2015 when I was asked if I have a learning disability. It was 2019 when I started suspecting it, but it was 2020 where I saw on AANE, which I do not know what they stand for now, but at the time they were Asperger’s and Autism Network, but they’ve dropped the Asperger’s from their name, but they recommended the book Aspergirls because I have read about if you’re assigned female at birth, traits may present differently because of societal expectations. And when I read that book, except for 1 or 2 little things, it sounded like it perfectly described me. Again, I’m in a waiting pattern because covid shutdowns. So it was knowing, okay, this definitely fits me. Now to wait for the official diagnosis.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s interesting how it’s often a multi year process for us when we start noticing that something might be different about us and then doing research and hearing other people share their observations about our behaviors and, and to find that correct help and support and to be diagnosed or to self identify eventually. It’s often a multi year process. Yeah.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, I feel like a lot of it too, is that I have family history, significant of having an uncle diagnosed with autism in the 1970s. So part of that was, that was the only autism my mom knew. And back in that day, my grandparents had defied the rest of society by not institutionalizing him. Because as I like to tell people, Hey, back in the day, it was: You put that thing away from society. No one wants to see it. Which I didn’t even know that was a thing until 2010 when I found out about in my state, there is, well, used to be the center for people with developmental disabilities that, my science teacher’s parents met working there. And I didn’t know that people were put away because with my uncle being autistic, and there were by the time I was a kid resources for him, there were adult day centers, pretty much being around people with disabilities was my normal, even though for a lot of people, that wasn’t normal for them.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. For a lot of people that was something that wasn’t talked about, whether it was related to shame or just the level of supports that were available back in the day were were much different. And yeah, the way people were treated then was, was very different.

So yeah. So it’s interesting that you have experience having that close relative, your uncle, and having your experience growing up with him. You have that exposure to, you know, just being around people with disabilities that I think a lot of people just don’t have unless it’s, you know, very close to their family like that.

So you did wind up going in, into tech and you wrote about some of your experiences at a high level in in the chapter of the book Ladies in Tech. And I’d love to learn more about what it’s been like working in tech, and I know there’s probably a lot of elements in this because you are, you’re a woman, you’re a Black woman and you’re a Black autistic woman in tech. I’d love to learn more about your experiences working there.

Martina Kuzenski: So honestly, I feel like an outsider in tech because while there’s starting to be more women in tech, there’s still a lack of Black women doing anything technical. It’s just some kind of admin stuff. And while I am in a small leadership position, so I’m not doing much technical, it was actually a dream ever since I started working in tech that I wanted to be in some leadership position. So we’re making our goals there.

But I I’m going to be honest. I found a lot of the tech industry to be very autism unfriendly. Now, I do applaud Auticon and Ultranauts for trying to change that. But it’s still, really there’s, people notice the challenges and then just go based on that, which I actually do have a copy of the Ladies in Tech book with me. I even share it with the students I mentor. Because sometimes we have topics, and I’m thinking, “oh, it’s in the book! We are going to utilize this.”

But for my 1st job out of college that was in tech, there was workplace bullying, and when I was a part of a layoff, it was honestly a really good thing. But, now at the time I wasn’t diagnosed, that wasn’t until many years later.

But it’s, the tech industry, while there are supposedly a lot of neurodivergent people in tech, there’s still a lot of stuff that really could use work, like with probably, I guess, how everyone interacts. People go into tech because they say, “Oh, I don’t have to talk to anyone.” Well, guess what? You’re going to have to talk to people. You may have to do presentations. You can’t just hide away. So if anyone who wants to go into tech, because they think they won’t talk to anyone, while there are the remote jobs now, there’s still some kinds of communication or some type of presentation or briefing at meetings. So if you want to do it just so you don’t have to talk to anyone, you’re going to have to find something else because you are going to be talking to people.

I actually almost quit tech years ago because I didn’t see any other Black women like me working in tech roles or going into tech roles. And that’s a big reason why I actually volunteered for P-TECH. When I had gotten accepted to the master’s program years ago, I made a promise to myself that I would use my degree to be that representation for other Black girls. And I felt like actually participating as a mentor with P-TECH, any of the Black girls, they’d see me there and think, “oh, I can do this. I actually have a chance at a future in tech.”

Carolyn Kiel: That’s important to be able to see people who, who look like you and have similar experiences in those roles, so you can see yourself there as well. And it’s interesting the, because, or maybe it’s ironic that the thought is, oh, I can go into tech and it’s, you know, it’s perfect for autistic people because we don’t have to talk to anyone, which is such a stereotype around us being antisocial. But at the same time, it’s also not even true about tech. Because as you said, you have to give presentations, you have to interact with colleagues and work on teams. And and in any company, there’s politics, like internal politics of some sort, and even though every company’s different, I’d imagine there’s some sort of aspect in that. And I know that can be challenging as well in terms of how do you talk to people who are higher up on the corporate hierarchy, and how do you interact with peers. I don’t know, have you had experiences with trying to navigate the sort of corporate interrelationships with people and politics?

Martina Kuzenski: I’d say probably not really. The kind of role that many of us are in, we don’t have to navigate that. That’s more of the people who are in higher lead positions who are in a supervisory role or they’re a project lead. Those are the people I feel like will have to do the navigating.

But something I do want for leadership is that I don’t have the innate leadership ability because of certain aspects of being autistic. And also, I am not prior military, so I know that they have actually learned how to lead. And while there are classes you can take about leadership, I question how much of that stuff and advice that they tell you, will it be able to be something a neurodivergent person can apply? Or is it: here’s some advice that could actually end up being ableist. So, I do wish that there were actually leadership programs specifically for neurodivergent people, so we can utilize our strengths and kind of mitigate and find a way around the challenges that we specifically have.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s interesting because I think when people think about neurodiversity programs or, or neurodivergent people in employment, there’s a lot of focus on sort of like entry level positions. But in reality, there are already so many neurodivergent people who are leaders. I mean, just by the nature of so many people were just never diagnosed because back in the day those supports just didn’t exist. So, a lot of us are in the working world, and some of us may not even know that we’re neurodivergent. So it would be helpful to have those kinds of leadership programs that kind of looked at different, just different ways of leaderships. Because there’s, I don’t think there’s any one single right way to be a leader. There’s so many ways to do it, which is what makes it so hard sometimes. So yeah, it would be helpful to have programs that were more tailored towards leaders who might be neurodivergent and where their strengths are.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes. Cause when I look up leadership classes for neurodivergent people, it’s “how can you help take care of the autistic people?” I’m thinking, “no, that’s not what I want. I’m autistic. I want to be a better leader. Help.”

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, looking back on my own career, I’m sure some of my leaders have been autistic and, and probably didn’t even know it. And it, it was a great experience. So I think we need to assume that autistic people and other neurodivergent people can be leaders.

I mean, we certainly have examples, you know, in the tech industry and others of CEOs who are neurodivergent. So I think we just need to do that whole middle band of management. How do we get people, you know, trained and supported with that as well?

In the book, Ladies in Tech, I believe one of the things you wrote about was feeling sometimes in tech that you were kind of excluded or didn’t quite fit in with people. Am I remembering that correctly? Because I wanted to kind of understand more about your experience with that too.

 

Martina Kuzenski: I’m a Black woman in tech. I already don’t fit in as it is and then add to me being autistic, it’s like, I feel like I’m the only one in existence. What I was doing in the past, I was pretty much not exactly excluded but kind of ignored, which even, no matter how hard I try to be more out there and show myself, it would be like, “Oh, we noticed you for a few months.”

But as the point of recording, I am in this re skilling program where I’m on a different project temporarily to learn new skill sets. So feel like that was pretty much the only way that I could pretty much have myself seen is be somewhere else, which I’ve heard from many women, there are some projects out there that the women are underutilized, which depending on the culture, you can really only do so much. Because if we’re, if we’re being told our mental health comes first, we can’t just keep fighting when no one wants us there.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it’s one thing to say your mental health comes first, but what does that mean for the company? Do they actually allow you to, one, take care of your mental health? And two, do they make necessary changes to include and support everyone, including women, including Black people, including neurodivergent people in their company culture.

You’ve mentioned in the book and also as we were chatting beforehand that you’ve had the experience of kind of not feeling autistic enough in autistic spaces. Can you share more about your experiences with that?

Martina Kuzenski: So for me, a lot of it was I was going to support groups and besides the fact that I was often either the only Black person or even the only person of color there, the successes I’ve had is something that many others haven’t had. Like I would be in support groups where many people had to drop out of college because their autistic challenges, whether diagnosed or not, was causing issues into being the best they could be, get the right supports. Because while people do say self diagnosis is valid, in many spaces, you can’t get supports unless you have a diagnosis in hand. And there were a lot of autistic people who were either self employed, unemployed, or maybe had a part time job. And here I am seeing a support group with a master’s degree and a full time job. So that was one of the big things where I’d sometimes sit in support groups and think, do people think I’m not actually autistic?

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, because I think there’s some statistic I’ve heard out there that the unemployment rate among autistic people is, I’ve heard it as high as like 80 percent, which is, I’ve always wanted to go back and really dig into and understand what that data is coming from. Because at the same time, I know I’ve worked with people who are autistic, like throughout my career at different points. So I don’t know if they’re just not counting or, or, or identifying, or that they have any idea where, where we’re working or what we’re doing. Because, you know, it’s, it’s until very recently, it’s been so hard to really understand and even self identify your own autism.

So yeah, and I can imagine going to support groups. I, I myself haven’t really met or had a lot of conversations with other autistic people who have Masters degrees and are working full time jobs. I mean, that’s the situation that I’m in now as well. And I can say I don’t know that many people who are in that position.

And that’s again, it’s not to discount the serious needs of people who are struggling to get an education and struggling to go through college and get a job and all those other things. But it really just shows the breadth of, you know, the true spectrum of experiences that we have. Exactly.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, I’ve actually been seeing the unemployment and underemployment rate for autistic people actually be higher than 80 percent now. I don’t know if it’s just various different websites and various different sources, but I’ve seen, I’ve seen 80 percent now being the low part. I’ve seen up to 85 and 87 percent as well. And this was something that we discussed in a support group one time and we’re wondering. Is that the statistic for diagnosed people? Is that the statistic for people who have higher support needs like autism level 2 or 3? Are we including the people who are maybe just under the border for diagnosis, who may be subclinical. Are we talking about people who just met the threshold? Are we asking people with various different levels of strengths and challenges? Are we talking about the people who wouldn’t fall under the old Asperger’s label. It’s just, it’s kind of felt that we’re not asking everyone.

Carolyn Kiel: That wouldn’t surprise me at all if that’s what’s going on with that data. Because I think a lot of people, you know, even like you, you got through your master’s program before you got your official diagnosis or around the same time. So it’s almost like if you’re able to kind of get through school and you seem okay, or your family thinks that you’re fine, or for a whole multitude of reasons, yeah, we’re probably not getting counted in, in that data. That’s, that’s what I’m suspecting.

And I guess in terms of the whole neurodiversity movement, so that is, becoming more popular and people are more aware of what neurodiversity is but, but certainly it’s, it’s, it’s far from perfect and there are definitely issues and challenges within that movement. And I know that’s something that you have had your own observations about as well. So, I mean, what kind of challenges or flaws do you see within the current neurodiversity movement?

Martina Kuzenski: I feel like for me, it’s a lack of realism of what really goes on. I feel like the neurodiversity movement, they focus mainly on identifying our strengths and how we can contribute based on our strengths. But I feel like that will cause people to ignore the challenges. And I’m someone who is someone who needs to know the reality and share the reality.

Because yes, my IQ when test did actually put me in the gifted range, which I don’t know how that happened really, because I feel more average, but what about the challenges where an autistic person ends up getting burnt out trying to mask all the time? Because the reality is, not everyone is in a position where they can unmask all the time. And if you’re like me and you get diagnosed later in life, you don’t know who you are outside of the mask or how to unmask. And sometimes it’s more of a case of, “whoops, my mask slipped. You weren’t supposed to see that.” So for every person with a high IQ, which I know people are debating how accurate IQ tests are and if they really mean anything, what about those that, without supports at work, they’re melting down at home, or maybe in some people’s cases, they’re melting down publicly. Or if, yes, high IQ, but my social skills are utter trash, and I need someone who’s around me who could stop me from being socially inappropriate if they can see that it’s coming. Or if there’s the challenges of getting your accommodations met. The thing is that not everyone’s accommodations that they ask for they receive.

Then there’s lack of support, internalized ableism, pretty much the challenges that autistic people face, it’s like the neurodiversity movement wants to hide. Which ends up being a problem where, Oh, there’s this super smart person melted down at work. They’re a bad employee. Now let’s fire them. Or, oh, this person is in school melted down because their favorite sports team lost a game, destroyed property. They’re not allowed here anymore.

Another flaw, it’s actually something I discovered within the past year, but the creator of the neurodiversity movement did not mean for the movement to actually be for every single person on the spectrum. I think the neurodiversity movement was specifically just for autistic people and just for the autistic people who would fit under the old Asperger’s label.

So it’s pretty much, Oh, let’s help them fit in. But if you’re someone with higher support needs, well, they’re not very smart. They’re not going to contribute anything positive to society, which we’re learning that that’s wrong. I know that with Beyond 6 Seconds, there’s something written by someone who’s nonverbal. I have seen that there are books by people who are nonverbal. There was a college graduate speaker who she used her communication device, she was autistic non verbal and said, once I had a way to communicate my world opened up. So there’s also kind of infighting within our own community of who do we get to support? Who deserves support?

And then while this isn’t a flaw with the neurodiversity movement, a lot of autistic supports are kind of geared honestly towards white people. Like, communities of color, they’re not really getting the resources they need, and they end up getting screwed over. Which, honestly, that’s part of the reason why I seek podcasts that I can sign up for, because if I see, “hmm, there’s a lack of Black people here. I have some time!” Which luckily Beyond 6 Seconds has plenty of diverse identities. So props to you all. But it’s just honestly, that’s not the norm when it comes to autistic resources.

Carolyn Kiel: I know when I, you know, open my own social media algorithms, which are now because of the podcast, like totally geared towards autism and, you know, self advocates, it’s, it’s almost all white women, like, unless I’m very actively seeking out other people. Because the algorithm’s like, Oh, this is a white woman and she wants to see white women stuff. I’m like, I want to see a lot of other experiences too.

Because you’re right. It’s a very narrow experience whether you’re diagnosed later in life versus getting a diagnosis very young is a different experience. Being a Black person who’s autistic, you certainly face a lot of other issues with the interactions with racism and police violence. Like the whole discussions that we hear about the importance of “unmasking,” I think sometimes works for, it works better if you’re white than if you’re a person of color, because there’s more like imminent danger. And I think a lot of the neurodiversity movement really doesn’t recognize that or talk about that as widely as, as it should.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, and one of the things I was thinking about after getting diagnosed is that I do not see any example of successful autistic Black people. With a couple of exceptions, it’s honestly been just white men, and if it’s not a white man, it’s a white woman.

But then it’s just, what about Black people? Because then that also sends the message that if you’re Black, you can’t be successful. Or if you’re autistic and Black, heck, good luck.

I think the first time I’ve even seen autistic Black representation anywhere, and I never watched the show myself, but the show Hero Elementary has a Black kid who’s autistic and he even stims in the show. And then recently there was another form of Black autistic representation where in The Proud Family: Louder and Prouder, in the second season, BeBe gets diagnosed with autism.

But thinking about it now, that’s Black men. What about Black women? Because it feels like we’re always getting behind. But while people say, “oh, that means you can be the representation. You can be the example.” I’m thinking. I don’t want to get burned out trying to fight and fight and fight. And I feel like being autistic is only part of my identity. It’s not everything about me. And plus, I have a life outside of advocacy. I have a full time job. I am married. I am mentoring students. I plan on going back to school for a Ph. D. I’m not going to have time to do Ph. D. and advocacy.

Which hopefully I can hopefully get some autistic supports with the Ph. D. program. I’ve never done accommodations before, but the Ph. D. program is difficult for even neurotypical people. Just the only question is my diagnosis is under my maiden name, so I don’t know if I’ll have issues with that.

Carolyn Kiel: I never requested accommodations at any point, so I don’t, yeah, I don’t know how that process works.

Martina Kuzenski: My evaluator still works at the same place, so if push came to shove, I’d just ask her. Hey, can you change my last name on here? Cause probably, really all I have to do is, Here’s my diagnosis papers, Here’s my marriage certificate to prove that I’m the same person. Here you go. Yay.

Because I’m working with my therapist to see what kind of accommodations might I need for the Ph.D program. Because I want to go to the same school I did for my master’s program and felt like there were a lot of things already built into place to help me. Like, for example, I know when I was in K 12, English was always my weakest subject because once you get to a certain point where you’re going all abstract and you’re talking about symbolism and all that not so fun stuff. Like, the chair is blue because the person wanted the chair to be blue, in my opinion, but apparently there’s got to be a deeper meaning. But my software engineering professor, when we’d have written assignments, if we got it done before a certain date, we’d email it to him and he would look it over and make any suggested changes. Which, while I am very nervous about criticism, I thought, “I want to have good grades in the master’s program. Let me get out of my comfort zone.” And probably those few extra suggestions may make a difference between your grade.

And where I went for graduate school, they have a writing center specifically that is for undergrad and graduate students. They can do stuff like helping you brainstorm to just having them proofread and revise to see if there needs to be any clarity. I was thinking, I wish I had that at my undergraduate school! Then I talked to my therapist and it turns out they did. They just never advertised it. I was thinking, I could have done better in undergrad!

So I feel like already there are systems in place that could help me. It’s just, I want to make sure that anything extra I may need, that I can already need. It’s just, I know with college and stuff, you have to know your specific supports, which may be more challenging. Because just because I’m autistic, I do not need all these supports. I might need that one or that one. And I know it’s, as I read it somewhere, you go from eligibility to entitlement once you go to — no, entitlement to eligibility — when you go to college. And I know for example ADHD if once you take your meds everything’s all hunky dory and you don’t need extra help, your meds are your accommodation. You don’t need anything else.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, it is interesting that the accommodations are available, but they’re not really advertised. And I’ve even spoken with guests who had, like, all the documentation they needed, and they were educated about what accommodations they wanted, and then they would go to a professor and, and the professor would be like, “no.” And there was some fine print that said, oh, here’s your accommodations, but “yeah, you know, we can’t make Professors do them,” and like, oh boy, like that’s, that’s something. So it just seems like such a difficult process to navigate.

Martina Kuzenski: Yes, I’ve heard that’s also “reasonable” accommodations, which you might think it’s reasonable, but other people may not. So it’s trying to determine is this reasonable? Or am I going to have to change everything just to fit you?

Like, it’s different from, one of my coworkers had to have neck surgery and he got the accommodation of getting a chair that gave him neck support because those resources are available. It’s just, okay, here’s a catalog, pick which one you want. And I know when we were starting to have to go back into the office more often, my supervisor at the time who he knew that I’m autistic because his son is autistic. And I felt safe enough to tell him after I gave him this article from AANE about having a neuro inclusive supervisory style. He said, “people are having to be back in the office more often. Bring your earbuds. And if it’s too, if you struggle even with that, we can start getting accommodation forms started to have you just be in the office for the afternoon. Because if you’re there half a day, then you count as being there the full day.” Which I haven’t needed that accommodation, but the fact that it was offered to me, really great! But I know not everyone has that privilege or those supports because I have heard of people when they’re disclosing, their coworkers and supervisors make the environment horrible enough that they’re forced to quit.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, I’ve heard that too. And then, of course, there’s some people get the sentiment of like, oh, accommodations are special treatment. It’s like, no, it’s just trying to level the playing field so that people can do their jobs with the supports. I mean, everybody has some sort of support in the workplace. It’s just, we don’t call them all accommodations. You know, whether you have like an ergonomic chair or an ergonomic keyboard, you don’t have to have a disability to, to need that. And sometimes it really is that simple, like wearing earbuds or sitting in a quieter area. I think people think that a lot of accommodations are like a big, huge deal and really expensive to implement, but most of the time they’re very inexpensive or sometimes they don’t cost anything. So yeah, trying to change the thoughts around accommodations.

Martina Kuzenski: Especially the special treatment thing, because they’re going to think they’re “Oh, if you start asking for accommodations, people are going to start asking for them too. And now we’re going to have to accommodate everyone.” Which it’s a little different between, “Hey, due to auditory sensitivities, I need this” versus “Hey, I would just want to work from home every day so I don’t have to go into the office.”

Carolyn Kiel: Right.

Martina Kuzenski: Now, if you’re working from home for accommodations, such as “I had knee surgery, and I can’t go upstairs, and sometimes the elevators in this building are broken” because that’s actually been the case at where I worked at the time. There was times where all the elevators were broken. I was like, well, what if someone needs them? “Okay, we’re just gonna make them crawl up the stairs,” or “Oh, walking up one floor. Yeah, you’re fine. Don’t be lazy.” And you just ate up a lot of spoons just walking up one floor.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah, that that’s absolutely an issue. Certainly things that I’ve read about and I’ve heard other content creators, even with physical disabilities, talk about. Even people saying that they’re an accessible environment or an accessible building, it’s like, “oh, we only have one stair.” It’s like, well, then, you know, that’s not accessible for, for a lot of people. But yeah, it’s an issue.

Martina, it’s been great talking with you. How can people get in touch with you, either if they want to like read your blog or read the book that you were featured in or, or just learn anything more about the advocacy that you do?

Martina Kuzenski: So other than the blog I posted and the book, which you can get the book on Amazon, it is available physical copy or Kindle. Really, the best way is, I’m often on LinkedIn. I might not post as much, but just find Martina Kuzenski under LinkedIn. And pretty much there you go. That’s really the best way. Because I, I’m not one of those people who will just willy nilly give out their email address. And honestly, I hear a lot of people say they don’t use email anymore.

So if I can build a connection, well, LinkedIn has a messaging feature, but if you really need my email, just ask me on LinkedIn, honestly.

Carolyn Kiel: Okay. Yeah. I’ll put links to your blog, to your book, and I’ll put a link to your LinkedIn profile. And I think people can, between those three ways, people can read your work and find ways to get in touch if they, if they want to make a connection.

Yeah. Well, Martina, is there anything else that you’d like our listeners to know or anything that they can help or support you with?

Martina Kuzenski: Well, probably other than more of us exist than you realize! It’s just a lot of us do not disclose because when you get the message, “you’re not supposed to disclose your autism!” For me, I’m of the opinion of, yes, people may have these opinions and biases of what they think autism is like, but if we don’t disclose, how can we change the face of autism?

Which I know is not always safe for people to disclose, but don’t not disclose because everyone tells you not to disclose.

Carolyn Kiel: Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying before is you need to see people represented who, who look like you, who look like all different types of people, so that people just get a better understanding of what autism really is or what neurodivergence really looks like and feels like from all different kinds of people.

Martina, thank you so much for being on my podcast. It was great talking with you and I appreciate you sharing your story here today.

Martina Kuzenski: It’s great talking to you too.

Carolyn Kiel: Thanks for listening to Beyond 6 Seconds. Please help me spread the word about this podcast. Share it with a friend, give it a shout out on your social media, or write a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find all of my episodes and sign up for my free newsletter at Beyond6seconds.net. Until next time.